Feb. 11, 2026

De Niro and Walken in The Deer Hunter (1978)

De Niro and Walken in The Deer Hunter (1978)
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De Niro and Walken in The Deer Hunter (1978)
De Niro and Walken in The Deer Hunter (1978)
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Season 2

In this episode of The Cinematic Flashback Podcast, Chuck and Matt discuss The Deer Hunter, Michael Cimino’s 1978 Academy Award–winning drama starring Robert De Niro, Christopher Walken, John Savage, John Cazale, and Meryl Streep.

The conversation follows the film’s three-part structure: the extended wedding and steel-town life in Pennsylvania, the Vietnam War and captivity, and the difficult return home. Rather than focusing only on the film’s most famous scenes, Chuck and Matt talk through how the first act establishes relationships and routines, how the middle section disrupts them, and how the final act lingers on the long-term effects of war.

They also discuss the performances of De Niro and Walken, John Cazale’s role as Stan, and the real-life circumstances surrounding Cazale’s final film. Other topics include Vilmos Zsigmond’s cinematography, the use of music (including Cavatina performed by John Williams), Michael Cimino’s career trajectory, and why the film’s pacing and final moments continue to divide audiences.

The episode wraps up by weighing where The Deer Hunter fits among Vietnam-era films and asking the show’s closing question: does it groove through the decades, or does it lose its beat?

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WEBVTT

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You know that we did that one great hunting chip tonight, Mike,

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I don't know what the hell you come up with

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all this?

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Hey?

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Wait, what are you?

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What are you thinking of going deer hunting tonight?

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Not tonight, I'm.

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Getting married tonight.

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You guys, go Dida honte. Hey.

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Hey, welcome to the Cinematic Flashback Podcast. Get ready to

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hop into the Wayback machine as we journey through the wild, bold,

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and unforgettable films of the nineteen seventies. Each episode, we

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break down a classic movie or forgotten Jim by exploring

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the who's who of each film, diving into the premis

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and plot, seeing how it performed then and now, and

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wrapping things up by asking did it groof of the

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decades or did it lose its beat? Today we're reviewing

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The Deer Hunter from nineteen seventy eight, directed by Michael

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Chimino and starring Robert de Niro and Christopher Walken. I

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am your host, Chuck Brian, and joining me is my

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co host, fellow movie lover and partner in crime, Matt Sargent.

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Happy New Year man.

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Yes, it's weird how that happens in our release schedule,

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but we definitely are super happy to be back and

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coming to you in season number.

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Two, and we are now covering our second movie about Vietnam,

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The Deer Hunter.

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Yeah, this is the movie that I think of when

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you talk about a Vietnam movie. There have been some

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others later and later times, but I remember as a

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young person. You know, it's funny. This movie came out

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in nineteen seventy eight. My brother graduated from high school

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in nineteen seventy two, and I distinctly remember seeing the

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numbers for the Selective Service being printed in the newspaper.

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Oh yeah, it was the last four digits of your

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social security are sort of like, those are the ones

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they were pulling from. And I remember thinking that that

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was it was very real for us. Even with me

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being kind of a young person in nineteen seventy eight,

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I was, well, I wasn't that young. I guess I

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was about seventeen.

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Well, this movie, even though it released in December of

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seventy eight, it was a limited release, and you might

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can guess why.

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Well, I think it's absolutely clear that it was so

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that it could get into the Academy Awards for that

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For that's I guess their Academy awards are done in

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the winter spring right timeframe. Yeah, they actually remember it

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being released early. And the reason I remembered is my

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sister married a guy who was really he loved this film,

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and he really really was into sort of the whole

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He had friends in the military. He never served, but

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he had a lot of respect for the military and

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a lot of interest in Vietnam War. And I think

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we went and saw it. Possibly we saw it as

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soon as we could, so it was right when it

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was in wide release, or if it was in limited

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release here we were, which possibly it was.

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I don't know.

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We were in northern Virginia, so DC area.

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You might have been early.

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Yeah, been early, because I do remember him being very

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excited about going and seeing it.

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Yeah. I realized that this film it went into wide

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release like early nineteen seventy nine, like February, right, And

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I realized while preparing for this that Apocalypse now released

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in August of seventy nine. So in this year there

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were two films about Vietnam.

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Yeah, they were definitely a one two punch about you know,

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sort of the writ I don't want to say it

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was sort of the coming the reckoning of our involvement

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in Vietnam kind of through film and popular history. It

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definitely was on a lot of people's minds. It was

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a big deal when people a lot of people, I mean,

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I was talking to somebody today who was born in

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thousands or something. Wow, I just you know, just it's

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so funny us that are of a certain age when

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you talk to someone who just islike, I mean to

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them through remembering those things that happened during the Vietnam

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War and after the Vietnam War is like for us

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remembering what happened or thinking about, you know, how our

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parents dealt with World War two, right, you know, Korean War,

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the Korean conflict and stuff.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, just.

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Really really an odd feeling on that. So I hope

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that we can relate to the people that are listening,

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if they're younger than that, we can give them a

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little bit of the view of what it was like

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to be that age during that time when you know,

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at the beginning, nobody talked about Vietnam. It was just

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a taboo subject. And then this film came out, Apocalypse

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Now came out, and some other movies that came out

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that really pushed it to the forefront. Of everyone's reckoning,

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and obviously this film did a great job at that,

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because I mean, it was critically acclaimed and it hits

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with a lot of impact for sure.

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Matt who's talking with us today.

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Well, we received a review on the Apple Podcasts platform

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from Dan though Man. So it looks like Dan though Man,

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but I'm going to give him the benefit of a

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doubt and say he was going for Dan the Man.

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Here's what Dan the Man says, unbridled enthusiasm fueled by

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amazing knowledge of movies and culture, emphasized by creativity. I

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find myself smiling unexpectedly while listening and googling names I've

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never heard of and then saying, oh, yeah, I remember them.

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Thank you so much, Dan though Man. We really appreciate that,

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and we thank you for the five star rating that

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genuinely helps the show reach more fans of seventy Cinema

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and keep those comet's coming. We'll do our best to

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read them on the air, and obviously, the more effusive

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you are with your praise, the more likely it will

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be read on the air.

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And don't forget, we're still looking to see if anybody

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else wants to listen to us. Talk about I have

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the Needle.

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So let us know, yes, please, I want to talk

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about I have denodl.

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We are about ready to get into The Deer Hunter.

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But first we need to take a quick commercial break.

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We'll be right back.

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There's one scene the Deer Hunter that I think a

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lot of people talk about, which is the Russian Roulette scene.

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Christopher Walkin and Robert de Niro have been captured by

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the Viet Cong and they're being toyed with by a

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bunch of people that don't speak a word of English,

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and they're asked to play Russian Roulette with each other.

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And these are two boyhood friends. They've known each other

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their whole lives, and as each one passes the gun

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to the other, they have to anticipate that they're going

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to watch their best friend's head blow off, and with

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each click of the gun, their bond is cemented even more.

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I remember distinctly sitting in the movie theater and you know,

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sort of weeping in the middle of this film at

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this scene, and feeling as if I was going to

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be changed for the rest of my life, that it

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was a moment of filmmaking that was so true and

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so horrifying and so real that I would never be

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the same.

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Welcome Back. The Deer Hunter tells the story of the

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impact of the Vietnam War on three Slavic American friends

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from a small steel town in Pennsylvania. It actually is

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just outside Pittsburgh. The film is structured in three movements.

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The first centers on the wedding of Steve played by

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John Savage, The second takes place in Vietnam, and the

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third takes place back in their town and is the

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aftermath after their survival from Vietnam.

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Let's talk about some production details, as we already mention.

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The Deer Hunter had a limited release in December of

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nineteen seventy eight, followed by a wider release on February

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twenty third, nineteen seventy nine. It had a budget of

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around fifteen million dollars and made roughly forty nine million

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at the box office. It was produced by EMI Films

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and distributed by Universal Pictures. It also won Academy Awards

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for Best Picture, Best Director, Best Supporting Actor that would

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be Christopher Walkin, Best Sound, and Best Film Editing. The

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Vietnam scenes were filmed in Thailand, and the river scenes

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that was the River Kwai from.

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The movie Bridge Over the River.

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Kwai from the Bridge over the River Kwai. But Bridge

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over the River Kuai wasn't filmed at the River Kwai.

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It was filmed elsewhere in Burma. I believe.

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I will say that in rewatching this film and watching

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them those scenes in the river and the scenes of

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them floating down the river, that was very effective.

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Hey, let's talk about this cast. Robert bar played Michael,

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and a little bit of trivia here, Roy Scheider was

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originally casted to play him.

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I could see that, Honestly, I could see Roy Scheider

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playing the Michael character. Christopher Walkin played Nick, who is

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probably one of the most interesting characters in this entire movie. Obviously,

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Michael drives a lot of the action and he's in

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virtually every scene, but Nick is portrayed by Christopher Walkin amazingly.

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Do you know what I found funny? This may be

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one of the earliest Christopher Walken performances that I remember seeing.

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And he wasn't Christopher walkening all over the place with

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that exaggerated manner of speech that he is so well

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known for. I don't know if I was expecting that.

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Yeah, No, I definitely. I agree with you. He did

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not have that sort of that almost affected or affectation

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of speech, which is effective in his other movies. But

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he was great in this movie. He really was understated.

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It was powerful, It was very powerful.

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Enjoyed him a lot. John Savage played Steven, and I

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have to admit I looked at John Savage's filmography, and

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he's played in a lot, and he's still appearing in

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television productions and films, and he has things that are

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in the works. But I cannot, for the life of

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me remember him in any other film, and when you

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try to look up information about him, it always says

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he's best known for The Deer Hunter.

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So we also get to talk about Meryl Streep, who

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played Linda. It turns out we'll talk a little bit

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more about about this as we as we talk about

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the actor who played Stan. But Meryl Streep is in

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this movie kind of as a not a deeply written character.

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Her amazing acting chops are not shown to their full potential.

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But when you hear more about why she was in

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this production, it will make a little more sense.

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There were two other guys. There was There was John

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and I don't remember the actor who played them, but

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he was the owner of the bar.

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Yeah, the heavier set guy.

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And then there was also Axel, who was part of

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the group of friends who would go out hunting. It

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turns out that the actor who played Axel was not

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actually an actor. When Robert de Niro was preparing for

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the role, he would go into blue collar bars to

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kind of pick up on speech patterns and how how

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blue collar men who work at steel factories act. And

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he struck up a conversation with Chuck Assbergen and he said,

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you know, this guy is really good. He would be

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good in the film. And this was the only film

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credit that he had, and he was he was amazing.

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Yeah, yeah, it was good. Some people have natural talent

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like that. And he was essentially playing somebody from his town,

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you know, probably doing the things that they do.

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So Matt, let's uh, let's do a little actor spotlight.

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Let's talk about John Kazel.

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I I have quite a bit of information about John Kazel.

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He is such a good actor that you fall into

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the trap of disliking him. Yes, because he's so good.

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You have to be careful because the guy was portraying somebody.

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But anyway, let's get into it. Actor John Cazell's performance

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as Stan in The Deer Hunter is a standout. It

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brought a mix of comic relief and tention to the

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group of steelworker friends from Pennsylvania. You know, Michael's intensity

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needed a target because if it had been unleashed on

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someone more serious than Stan, we would have thought Michael

229
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was a jerk all the time, not this, So it

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was a great foil. And he's super fussy. He's always

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fixing his hair. He fancies himself a ladies man, but

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clearly not real good at it. And you know, it's

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pretty funny because there's scenes all through the movie where

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he's asking whether his date is attractive and Michael's telling

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him no, which is hilarious. It's a funny scene, does

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it Great brings a thirty eight Revolver on a Pennsylvania

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hunting trip, which is typically Pennsylvania hunting is rifles, right,

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because you're up in the mountains and stuff. I will

239
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have to point out though, that there are no mountains

240
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in Pennsylvania that look like the mountains they were hunting in.

241
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There are no snow capped mountains in Pennsylvania. But the

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idea of what they're trying to do. They're doing a

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certain kind of hunting, which is they're stalking and having

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John Cassel's stand kind of be along the trip is

245
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you know, jarring in its doesn't fit right. His whole

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personality doesn't fit. He's not serious about it. He forgets

247
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his boots years before. He clearly forgot his socks, and

248
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he forgot his gloves. And you know, we see this

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in the scene with Michael on the hunting trip where

250
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Michael's had enough, right, it's been years, and he gives

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you a clue into the idea that Michael knows he's

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leaving and he feels like these guys need to take

253
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care of themselves. He can no longer take care of them,

254
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and so he's trying to set that bit almost like

255
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a parent saying you need to pack your own bag

256
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and if you forget stuff, well you gotta live with it, right,

257
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And that's at least that's what I took from that,

258
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And Kazel's goofiness and insecurity really is a great foil

259
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for that scene. And I think it's one of the

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reasons this movie works well is using Stand in that way.

261
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And I will say the other part that's very interesting

262
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about Kazel is he was diagnosed with lung cancer, terminal

263
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lung cancer before filming even started. The film studio didn't

264
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want to ensure him because they knew he had terminal

265
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cancer and he was dying, so the director went ahead

266
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and shot all his scenes up front, So he upfronted

267
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all the scenes that John Kazel was in so that

268
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if he succumbed during filming, they would still have his

269
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parts in the can. And he did survive filming, but

270
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he did die shortly thereafter. The other interesting part about

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this is, and we kind of talked a little bit

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about it, is Meryl Streep was in this movie. Meryl

273
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Streep and John Kazeil were in a very serious, committed

274
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relationship at the time, and she was very concerned with

275
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his health. So she let it be known that having

276
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her in the movie would be a great way for

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her to be able to keep an eye on John

278
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to make sure he's not over exerting himself, and that

279
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she could be there and, you know, to be honest

280
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with you spend as much time with him. You know,

281
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the writing's on the wall. It's really a moving kind

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of situation. The other thing about John Kazelle. He literally

283
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was in five films and all of them were fantastic hits,

284
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so I think I can name him off. Obviously, he

285
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was in The Conversation, which we have reviewed here. He

286
00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:57.799
was in The Godfather, He was in The Godfather part too,

287
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he was in Dog Day Afternoon, and of course he

288
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was in The Deer Hunter. It's an amazing repertoire of

289
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films to be in and then to pass away. I mean,

290
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I think we kind of missed a great one here.

291
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But you know, he sure gave us a lot while

292
00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:17.559
he was with us, and it's quite sad to think

293
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that he passed away after these films. I think he

294
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would have gone on to be an amazing senior statesman

295
00:16:24.919 --> 00:16:27.320
of film. He would have been a great guy to

296
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listen to to hear talk about his stories. You know,

297
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we really lost something there, and I think it also

298
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put probably a pretty indelible ink mark on you know,

299
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Meryl Streep's acting going forward to the rest of her life.

300
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I mean, obviously she's a national treasure. Marri Streep is

301
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an amazing actress, and I think the roles she's most

302
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known for are those ones where she's really emoting deep, deep,

303
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emotion and emotional loss, and you can kind of get

304
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where some of this might have come from. Sure, I

305
00:17:03.399 --> 00:17:05.599
know I went along on and on about it, but

306
00:17:06.200 --> 00:17:08.400
it was pretty moving to hear about that. I always

307
00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:11.519
just sort of didn't even know much about John Kazel.

308
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And one of the best things about doing this podcast

309
00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:16.839
is even we do a little bit of research and

310
00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:19.319
we find stuff that we didn't know about. And that's

311
00:17:19.359 --> 00:17:22.559
one that was very interesting. And I am here to

312
00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:25.680
say that I am happy that I learned this, and

313
00:17:25.720 --> 00:17:29.640
I'm happy to realize that my dislike for the character

314
00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:34.039
Stan was probably one hundred percent due to his good acting.

315
00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:36.519
So you mentioned that he was in the conversation. Do

316
00:17:36.519 --> 00:17:39.079
you remember what his character's name was in the conversation?

317
00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:42.559
I think it was Stan again, it was Stan, Yeah, yes,

318
00:17:43.079 --> 00:17:45.359
And clearly the guy would have been the best guy

319
00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:47.519
in the world to talk to you. He acted with

320
00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:50.200
de Niro, he acted I mean.

321
00:17:50.240 --> 00:17:56.880
She know, a couple of twice, I mean three times.

322
00:17:56.960 --> 00:17:59.359
Actually, yeah, amazing, what a lot.

323
00:17:59.799 --> 00:18:02.920
I had not put together John Cazell until we did

324
00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:06.359
the conversation, and then I was like, he looks so

325
00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:09.640
familiar to me. Of course this is Fredo. And then

326
00:18:09.799 --> 00:18:14.400
you look at his IMDb page and it's like, oh wow,

327
00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:18.440
this is amazing. So I was glad to see him

328
00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:21.039
in Deer Hunter. This was really good.

329
00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:21.400
Yeah.

330
00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:24.119
And I think his role, I mean it was a

331
00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:27.720
I can see why Michael Chippino fought to have him

332
00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:30.319
in the film because I think he was the perfect

333
00:18:30.359 --> 00:18:32.279
foil for Michael's intensity.

334
00:18:32.599 --> 00:18:36.079
Yes, yes, Well let's talk about the filmmakers now. The

335
00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:40.000
director of cinematography was vilmosh Zigmont, whose work we've already

336
00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:43.559
seen in mckayb and Missus Miller and Deliverance, and we

337
00:18:43.640 --> 00:18:47.440
will see him again this season in Scarecrow and The

338
00:18:47.559 --> 00:18:52.799
Long Goodbye. He also has an audio commentary on the

339
00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:55.720
Blu ray for The Deer Hunter, and I picked up

340
00:18:55.759 --> 00:18:58.880
some trivia that I did not know. So, first of all,

341
00:18:59.160 --> 00:19:02.799
the director of photography is not the guy who is

342
00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:06.559
actually operating the camera. For some reason, I always thought

343
00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:10.000
that the cinematographer was the camera operator. He's not. He's

344
00:19:10.240 --> 00:19:14.000
he's the guy who is in charge of the camera operator,

345
00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:16.680
the gaffers who set up the lights, and he works

346
00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:19.880
with the director to get his vision up on the screen.

347
00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:23.359
And I thought that was interesting. When they shot this film,

348
00:19:23.480 --> 00:19:26.799
it was shot during the summer in Pennsylvania. Do you

349
00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:29.440
know how hard it is to make Pennsylvania look like

350
00:19:29.559 --> 00:19:30.680
winter during.

351
00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:32.599
The sauce, because it's one hundred percent green.

352
00:19:33.200 --> 00:19:36.440
They were plucking leaves from the trees so that it

353
00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:39.200
would look like leaves had dropped, and then they sprayed

354
00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:41.799
some chemical that would brown the grass up to give

355
00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:43.119
it that winter.

356
00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:46.000
Dormant, winter dormant. And then of course it was wet,

357
00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:49.680
which is absolutely just like Pennsylvania in the winter. It's

358
00:19:49.839 --> 00:19:54.480
always wet and nasty if it's not frozen and dangerous.

359
00:19:54.599 --> 00:19:57.799
Well, the reason why you saw snow on the mountain

360
00:19:58.160 --> 00:20:00.519
was because they filmed those in Seattle.

361
00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:03.920
Yeah, clearly. I mean, they're the wrong kind of mountains.

362
00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:07.279
It's the wrong kind of mountain. I wouldn't know about

363
00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:09.759
the particulars of Pennsylvania, but I know that the style

364
00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:12.640
of mountains on this coast versus out on the West

365
00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:14.680
Coast is much different looking.

366
00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:18.160
Music. I know you had to have noticed the music, it.

367
00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:20.119
Was, Yeah, yeah, I noticed. The one thing I was

368
00:20:20.160 --> 00:20:23.759
gonna say is I did notice the music on this film,

369
00:20:24.039 --> 00:20:26.119
and it was the main thing. What I noticed is

370
00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:28.720
there was some I'm gonna I'm gonna throw a guess

371
00:20:28.759 --> 00:20:31.039
out here, because music is not my thing, go for it.

372
00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:33.799
But I'm gonna say in most of those scenes at

373
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the hunting and the mountains, it sounded like Gregorian chant

374
00:20:38.920 --> 00:20:40.640
or something along those lines.

375
00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:43.200
What I would say is that it felt like it

376
00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:47.200
was like a church chral. Yes, ye, right, so it

377
00:20:47.799 --> 00:20:51.079
gave you this idea like you're in some place that's holy.

378
00:20:51.279 --> 00:20:53.680
Yeah, the cathedral of the Hunt.

379
00:20:54.119 --> 00:20:56.799
And of course the theme song from The Deer Hunter

380
00:20:57.079 --> 00:21:01.559
is the guitar piece that's played through that's called Cavatina,

381
00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:05.400
and that was performed by Australian guitarist John Williams.

382
00:21:05.880 --> 00:21:08.359
The music I did, I mean, I'm getting better about

383
00:21:08.359 --> 00:21:11.119
noticing the music and movies, not just having it as

384
00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:14.519
an an afterthought or as a flow for me. So

385
00:21:14.599 --> 00:21:17.559
I definitely did notice that, and I noticed the music

386
00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:21.720
at the wedding and uh, what.

387
00:21:21.599 --> 00:21:25.359
Was that song? I Love You Babe?

388
00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:25.880
Yeah?

389
00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:29.599
Right right? Did you notice that people were singing the song?

390
00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:33.039
A lot of times whenever you see a movie and

391
00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:35.839
you're at a party and everyone's either dancing or whatever,

392
00:21:36.119 --> 00:21:38.200
there's no music in there, right right, so that they

393
00:21:38.200 --> 00:21:40.720
can get the actors talking, you know, and they have

394
00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:43.440
a nice, good bass, and then they put the song. No,

395
00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:46.720
they recorded the music right there with that band playing,

396
00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:50.119
and I saw someone singing in time to that song,

397
00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:52.200
and I'm like, holy cow.

398
00:21:52.039 --> 00:21:53.559
They they were actually playing.

399
00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:56.200
This is live. That's why I think maybe in some

400
00:21:56.240 --> 00:21:58.160
cases it was a little hard to hear them.

401
00:21:58.319 --> 00:22:02.480
Yeah, this was very familiar to me in these scenes,

402
00:22:02.519 --> 00:22:05.680
the wedding scenes. I had gone to a wedding of

403
00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:08.720
who remained very very good friends of our family, and

404
00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:12.759
it was exactly like the wedding in The Deer Hunter.

405
00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:17.880
So the dancing, the music, the collecting of the money

406
00:22:17.880 --> 00:22:20.559
for the bride, the bride price, all of that stuff

407
00:22:20.599 --> 00:22:22.480
that went on in that wedding that you saw going

408
00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:25.039
on all happened. And I went to a wedding that

409
00:22:25.160 --> 00:22:27.200
was like that this and then a few years later,

410
00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:29.039
when I'm watching The Deer Hunter, I'm like, hey, I

411
00:22:29.079 --> 00:22:33.039
have been there. I have been to that wedding. That's crazy.

412
00:22:33.799 --> 00:22:36.839
Let's talk about Michael Chiappino, the film's director and co writer.

413
00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:42.480
He's a fascinating figure whose career really is the classic

414
00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:45.839
Hollywood rise and fall story. He was born in nineteen

415
00:22:45.880 --> 00:22:49.079
thirty nine. He started out studying architecture and dramatic arts

416
00:22:49.079 --> 00:22:52.599
before breaking into the industry, starting out with commercials and

417
00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:56.440
screen running gigs. He co wrote the screenplay for Silent Running,

418
00:22:56.920 --> 00:23:01.160
directed by Douglas Trumbull, and he also tributed to Magnum Force,

419
00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:05.359
the Dirty Harry sequel. Chimino's directorial debut was the heist

420
00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:08.359
comedy Thunderbolt and Lightfolk, one of my favorite movies by

421
00:23:08.359 --> 00:23:11.720
the way, starring Clineaswood and Jeff Bridges, which showed snack

422
00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:15.039
for character driven stories. The Deer Hunter was his sophomore

423
00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:18.759
effort and a massive triumph. Obviously won five Oscars for this,

424
00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:23.960
including Best Pitcher, Best Director. Chibbino's epic western Heaven's Gate

425
00:23:24.200 --> 00:23:27.960
in nineteen eighty became one of senna's most infamous disasters,

426
00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:30.759
ballooning from a seven point five million dollar budget to

427
00:23:30.839 --> 00:23:34.920
over forty million due to endless reshirts and perfectionism. The

428
00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:38.799
film flopped spectacularly at the boss office, losing United Artists

429
00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:43.759
and estimated thirty seven million and effectively bankrupting United Artists

430
00:23:43.799 --> 00:23:46.400
that they were sold to MGM for pennies on the

431
00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:50.480
dollar after this, and United Artists basically ceased to be

432
00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:54.559
after that, and he is largely blamed.

433
00:23:54.319 --> 00:24:01.240
For this film was four hundred percent over budget. Yeah yeah,

434
00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:05.000
I just let that sink in. Yeah, four hundred percent. Yeah,

435
00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:08.519
that's crazy. He only directed a handful of films later,

436
00:24:08.599 --> 00:24:11.119
and I think they pretty limited. They probably put a

437
00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:14.200
very close leash on him, wanting to tap into his

438
00:24:14.279 --> 00:24:17.519
talent but not also lose their shirts. So it was

439
00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:19.720
the Year of the Dragon from nineteen eighty five, the

440
00:24:19.759 --> 00:24:23.279
Sicilian in eighty seven, before largely retreating from Hollywood. He

441
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:27.240
passed away in twenty sixteen, but people are looking back

442
00:24:27.400 --> 00:24:30.720
at his work and sort of seeing what a visionary

443
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:34.640
he really was. But what amazing effort on this film,

444
00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:37.880
really and think about it, it was like, what is

445
00:24:37.960 --> 00:24:39.200
a second film?

446
00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:42.279
Right? That's crazy that kind of success. And I did

447
00:24:42.279 --> 00:24:45.920
not realize Christopher will walk in one an Oscar so

448
00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:48.839
early in his career. Sure, yeah, it's amazing.

449
00:24:49.880 --> 00:24:52.519
Well, we're going to step aside for another quick break

450
00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:55.599
and when we come back, we'll move into spoiler territory.

451
00:24:55.759 --> 00:25:03.240
We're going to see it on the other side. Hey,

452
00:25:03.319 --> 00:25:05.119
this is Matt and I'm Dark.

453
00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:08.720
We're just out here riding our bikes circle in the

454
00:25:08.759 --> 00:25:12.279
cul de Sac, talking about the movies. Music and TV

455
00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:15.039
shows that we all love and remember, but just as

456
00:25:15.079 --> 00:25:17.480
easily could have fallen by the wayside and been forgotten.

457
00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:21.519
These are the tales of creative chaos, last minute miracles,

458
00:25:21.640 --> 00:25:25.200
and lightning strikes no one saw coming. So settle in,

459
00:25:25.640 --> 00:25:29.640
because every legend has a backstory, and sometimes the best

460
00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:32.799
ones start by mistake. This is where we talk about

461
00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:33.920
and discuss.

462
00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:42.359
The accidental legends. Welcome back. I've been kind of fascinated

463
00:25:42.359 --> 00:25:46.160
how divided critics are on the first act, the whole

464
00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:51.000
wedding scene, and how long it is. What were your

465
00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:51.720
thoughts on that?

466
00:25:52.519 --> 00:25:56.720
To me, Act one sets up the relationships of the people,

467
00:25:57.039 --> 00:26:01.000
the relationships of these main protects that are going to be,

468
00:26:01.400 --> 00:26:04.519
you know, basically pushed forward into the Vietnam War. It's

469
00:26:04.599 --> 00:26:07.079
very important in my opinion, to lay that groundwork and

470
00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:10.279
to understand what's happening. So so to me, it was

471
00:26:10.359 --> 00:26:12.240
like you get to know the people, you get to

472
00:26:12.279 --> 00:26:15.240
know them, they're working in a steel mill. There was

473
00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:17.920
a little bit of disjointedness on like where you're getting

474
00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:20.640
out on a Thursday night and getting married and then

475
00:26:20.640 --> 00:26:22.960
you're going hunting for the weekend. It was a little

476
00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:25.880
weird on that that whole timeline was kind of jumbled

477
00:26:25.880 --> 00:26:26.119
to me.

478
00:26:26.319 --> 00:26:28.839
Well, this is how I saw it. Michael, Nick and

479
00:26:28.920 --> 00:26:32.559
Steven they have signed up to go to Vietnam. This

480
00:26:32.599 --> 00:26:35.720
is their last day of working. And now Steven he's

481
00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:38.480
going to get married before he goes off, right, And

482
00:26:39.240 --> 00:26:41.400
so they have this wedding they're going to get in

483
00:26:41.480 --> 00:26:44.640
one last deer hunt, and so they're cramming a lot

484
00:26:44.680 --> 00:26:47.559
of life in prior to leaving.

485
00:26:47.799 --> 00:26:50.359
Yeah, I would one hundred percent agree with that. There

486
00:26:50.519 --> 00:26:54.160
was an idea that these guys have been going along

487
00:26:54.319 --> 00:26:57.880
for a while in this pattern, because they referenced many

488
00:26:57.960 --> 00:27:02.359
previous deer hunts. They reference the idea that these guys

489
00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:05.079
when they walk through the steer mill, we're saying goodbye

490
00:27:05.119 --> 00:27:07.559
to everybody. They had been there a long long time, right,

491
00:27:07.640 --> 00:27:10.440
So this had been their license graduating from high school

492
00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:13.599
most likely, right, right. So, and these guys are looking

493
00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:18.440
like they're twenty five. So I mean it's been ten years,

494
00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:21.400
maybe eight years, they've been doing this. They're living their life.

495
00:27:21.480 --> 00:27:26.039
There's obviously some stuff going on with Steven getting married,

496
00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:29.200
and there is a very interesting part in there where

497
00:27:29.200 --> 00:27:32.839
he basically admits to Nick that he's never really had

498
00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:36.079
relations with the woman he's going to marry, although it's

499
00:27:36.119 --> 00:27:40.640
pretty well understood that she's pregnant already by another man.

500
00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:45.480
So you know, there's that whole kind of what's what's

501
00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:49.440
underlying a lot of interpersonal things that are happening. I

502
00:27:49.480 --> 00:27:51.240
was going to say, there's also during the wedding, it's

503
00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:56.799
pretty clear that Mike and Nick's then girlfriend have had

504
00:27:56.960 --> 00:28:00.480
or had a relationship, because they're kind of forced dance

505
00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:02.599
together and they're kind of trying to pretend like they're

506
00:28:02.599 --> 00:28:05.000
not dancing together, and you know what I mean, It's

507
00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:06.119
just it's very awkward.

508
00:28:06.200 --> 00:28:09.720
It was there was obvious attraction I think between Linda

509
00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:13.319
and Nick and Michael, and I just think that that

510
00:28:13.559 --> 00:28:16.599
was just a very awkward because I think Nick and

511
00:28:16.759 --> 00:28:19.720
Linda were getting engaged or had gotten engaged.

512
00:28:20.440 --> 00:28:22.680
Yeah, he wanted to marry her. When he came back,

513
00:28:22.839 --> 00:28:24.839
he said, let's get married. But I think they were

514
00:28:24.880 --> 00:28:27.200
also very casual. Because I think you find out and

515
00:28:27.279 --> 00:28:29.960
I think this was revealed this it might be a spoiler.

516
00:28:30.279 --> 00:28:33.880
This was revealed by the filmmaker in some interviews that

517
00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:39.880
later that that Steven's bride was actually carrying Nick's baby,

518
00:28:40.240 --> 00:28:42.839
so that baby is Nick's baby, and you do get

519
00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:45.599
a confirmation in that as we get back from the

520
00:28:45.640 --> 00:28:49.000
war that baby's been born, and he has a head

521
00:28:49.039 --> 00:28:53.400
of blonde hair just like Nick, not like not like

522
00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:58.400
even or his wife. Right, it totally looks like not

523
00:28:58.759 --> 00:29:01.400
the right thing. So so there's that. And you also

524
00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:03.720
see Michael takes like a double take at the kid

525
00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:05.319
when he first sees the kid when he's going to

526
00:29:05.359 --> 00:29:06.680
try to find where Steve is.

527
00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:10.759
What did you think about the scene where the veteran

528
00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:14.160
comes in to the VFW and goes off to the bar.

529
00:29:14.920 --> 00:29:17.279
Well, I thought it was sort of bringing in and

530
00:29:17.319 --> 00:29:19.880
foreshadowing a little bit of what's going to happen in

531
00:29:19.920 --> 00:29:23.799
the future, sort of these guys are possibly don't have

532
00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:25.279
any idea what they're getting into.

533
00:29:25.720 --> 00:29:29.319
I have two thoughts on this. And in this case,

534
00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:32.559
they're seeing this soldier they're not even in yet, and

535
00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:35.240
they're looking at this this they're talking with this vet.

536
00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:38.920
This vet has this thousand yard stare right that he

537
00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:41.720
is just looking off at it and he is he

538
00:29:41.799 --> 00:29:44.400
has this look of like, you guys don't even know

539
00:29:44.839 --> 00:29:48.640
what you're about to go into. And I thought that

540
00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:53.680
that scene was riveting because as it's foreshadowing, you know.

541
00:29:54.039 --> 00:29:58.279
And then the other area of foreshadow was when in

542
00:29:58.359 --> 00:30:02.119
the wedding ritual there was a Slavic ritual where they

543
00:30:02.359 --> 00:30:04.440
the bride in the groom, they would drink from a

544
00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:05.920
this this this.

545
00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:09.920
Wine loving two shops hooked together.

546
00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:12.920
And as as they're drinking, the idea is to not

547
00:30:13.039 --> 00:30:16.759
spill anything, and of course the bride spills a little

548
00:30:16.799 --> 00:30:20.160
bit of red wine on her dress, which maybe was

549
00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:23.640
for telling of what was going to happen with Steve.

550
00:30:23.960 --> 00:30:28.079
There is a scene after the wedding where Nick and

551
00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:32.759
Mike are running down the street and Denaro's character is

552
00:30:32.759 --> 00:30:36.440
stripping off his clothes. Yeah, and they end up underneath

553
00:30:36.559 --> 00:30:40.720
a light and there is a great conversation there because

554
00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:43.880
Mike is talking with Nick and you're starting to get

555
00:30:43.880 --> 00:30:46.079
the idea, okay, so there might not be quite as

556
00:30:46.160 --> 00:30:50.160
much bravado on his side, and Nick is saying, Hey,

557
00:30:50.440 --> 00:30:52.759
if something happens, don't leave me over there.

558
00:30:52.920 --> 00:30:54.119
Yeah, you gotta bring me back.

559
00:30:54.440 --> 00:30:56.839
You got to bring me back. And then but after

560
00:30:57.119 --> 00:31:00.519
after the wedding they go off on this hunt. Let's

561
00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:02.920
get to it. But you know, this is where we

562
00:31:02.960 --> 00:31:08.359
get that interaction between Mike and Stan where Stan has

563
00:31:08.400 --> 00:31:11.079
forgotten his boots and Mike's like, hey, look, I'm not

564
00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:13.279
going to be around here to take care of you.

565
00:31:13.279 --> 00:31:16.680
You need to start doing this for yourself. Yeah.

566
00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:19.759
He also just says I said no. Yeah, so and

567
00:31:19.920 --> 00:31:22.319
because because at one point Nick tries to step in

568
00:31:22.359 --> 00:31:24.279
and said gives them the boots, and he's got his

569
00:31:24.359 --> 00:31:26.880
boots over his shoulder, and at that time you sort

570
00:31:26.920 --> 00:31:31.599
of see a glimpse under the basket of Michael's extreme intensity,

571
00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:34.799
like no, I said no, And that's how we're going

572
00:31:34.880 --> 00:31:37.480
to do this, And we see that come up again

573
00:31:37.599 --> 00:31:39.519
later in other scenes.

574
00:31:39.400 --> 00:31:43.559
Before we move into Vietnam. They finished the hunt and

575
00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:46.480
Mike has stalked this year? Is that what you were

576
00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:49.039
saying that they were stalking? And then you have someone

577
00:31:49.119 --> 00:31:51.480
like who's a John and Axel they're just kind of

578
00:31:51.839 --> 00:31:53.279
shooting and going off.

579
00:31:53.319 --> 00:31:54.480
They're they're drinking.

580
00:31:55.279 --> 00:31:57.599
Yeah that they were more into that. When they're done

581
00:31:57.640 --> 00:32:00.119
with the hunt, they go back to the bar. And

582
00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:02.960
I love this about the actor who played John. He

583
00:32:03.119 --> 00:32:06.200
actually learned that piece of music and he played that

584
00:32:06.440 --> 00:32:10.119
on the piano and it bookends with the ending of

585
00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:15.759
the movie where he's playing and it just captures everyone's attention,

586
00:32:16.200 --> 00:32:19.839
and then we move into Act two at Vietnam, almost

587
00:32:19.880 --> 00:32:22.839
like it's almost like boom, you're there, and it's a

588
00:32:22.839 --> 00:32:27.160
little disjointing. Right at this point, Nick and Steve I think,

589
00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:30.519
are part of a unit and Mike is on some

590
00:32:30.599 --> 00:32:34.480
other unit, and somehow they miraculously all are at the

591
00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:35.400
same place.

592
00:32:35.559 --> 00:32:37.079
They happened to get to this, and I think one

593
00:32:37.079 --> 00:32:39.079
of the things is I think Mike goes off and

594
00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:42.400
he's ends up being he's a Green Beret, he's a ranger, right,

595
00:32:43.079 --> 00:32:46.480
and so he's obviously in sort of a different kind

596
00:32:46.480 --> 00:32:48.440
of thing. But they get thrown in together with this

597
00:32:48.519 --> 00:32:51.720
other unit. You get off the helicopter and then and

598
00:32:51.759 --> 00:32:54.200
then things take a turn for the worst and that

599
00:32:54.319 --> 00:32:56.640
all three of them get captured. But you don't see

600
00:32:56.680 --> 00:32:59.160
any of that. You just see sort of a big

601
00:32:59.279 --> 00:33:01.880
group of the coming and the next thing you know,

602
00:33:02.119 --> 00:33:03.160
you're at the river.

603
00:33:03.200 --> 00:33:07.279
Right right, and they're in this makeshift prison that's floating

604
00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:10.799
on the river, and there's like two levels and down

605
00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:13.680
at the bottom level that keep everyone and then upstairs

606
00:33:13.960 --> 00:33:16.839
they're playing what I found to be just a very

607
00:33:16.880 --> 00:33:19.319
horrifying game of Russian roulette.

608
00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:22.319
They're forcing the captured soldiers, some of them, I think

609
00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:25.839
one of them is a South Vietnamese soldier, and then

610
00:33:25.880 --> 00:33:29.680
some American soldiers and they're basically just piling up the

611
00:33:29.680 --> 00:33:32.640
dead bodies from this game. They're betting on it. It's

612
00:33:32.680 --> 00:33:35.519
all loud, and the guy who's running the game is

613
00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:39.000
a slapping them and yelling and getting them to play

614
00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:42.680
the game. The idea of this is maybe not one

615
00:33:42.720 --> 00:33:47.559
hundred percent accurate, but the idea is to portray the random,

616
00:33:47.920 --> 00:33:53.000
senseless violence that was war in general and the Vietnam

617
00:33:53.079 --> 00:33:56.200
War and in particular. But I think it's important to

618
00:33:56.240 --> 00:33:59.640
talk about this with Stephen beforehand. Sure, Stephen was falling

619
00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:02.799
apart underneath. Every time the gun went off or every

620
00:34:02.799 --> 00:34:06.359
time the gun didn't go off, Stephen was falling apart.

621
00:34:06.440 --> 00:34:09.440
And Michael is basically trying to get him, you know,

622
00:34:09.519 --> 00:34:13.000
to pull himself together. You got to pull yourself together.

623
00:34:13.079 --> 00:34:15.719
And he's like, he's clearly I mean that acting John

624
00:34:15.800 --> 00:34:18.920
Savage is acting in that is amazing because you can

625
00:34:18.960 --> 00:34:22.400
see he is falling apart. I mean the click and

626
00:34:22.440 --> 00:34:25.440
he said he just loses it and then then he

627
00:34:25.480 --> 00:34:27.840
gets pulled up and has to do it, and you

628
00:34:27.880 --> 00:34:30.719
know it did the gun does go off and it

629
00:34:30.760 --> 00:34:33.880
grazes them, and they're so mad that they basically just

630
00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:36.320
pick them up and throw them in this this sort

631
00:34:36.360 --> 00:34:40.199
of pit with you know, that's underwater ninety percent and

632
00:34:40.280 --> 00:34:44.000
like maybe there's an inch of headspace to be able

633
00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:47.480
to and they're floating. Sure, and that's where John is, well,

634
00:34:47.480 --> 00:34:49.360
he's freaking out in there.

635
00:34:49.719 --> 00:34:52.960
Mike has a plan. He's you know, he's a Green Beret.

636
00:34:53.199 --> 00:34:56.039
He's kind of the leader from act one. He has

637
00:34:56.079 --> 00:34:59.480
his head together and he has a plan for how

638
00:34:59.480 --> 00:35:01.840
they can Was this a good plan?

639
00:35:02.679 --> 00:35:05.400
It was the only plan you could have done? Right?

640
00:35:06.199 --> 00:35:08.280
So he had them put three bullets.

641
00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:11.239
He convinces him to put three bullets, and he talks

642
00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:13.519
to Nick about it and Nick's like, you're out of

643
00:35:13.559 --> 00:35:14.079
your mind.

644
00:35:14.119 --> 00:35:17.079
This is crazy, and he works it so that it's

645
00:35:17.400 --> 00:35:23.440
him versus Nick, right, and every time he puts the

646
00:35:23.519 --> 00:35:26.960
gun to his head. I have to be very honest.

647
00:35:27.360 --> 00:35:29.440
The first time I watched this film, I had to

648
00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:32.280
close my eyes a couple of times. It was pretty rough.

649
00:35:32.440 --> 00:35:34.920
Well, and the craziest thing is that he puts three

650
00:35:34.920 --> 00:35:38.039
bullets in, he spins it, he hands it, Michael does

651
00:35:38.079 --> 00:35:41.119
it first pulls the trigger and goes click, and then

652
00:35:41.159 --> 00:35:43.400
he hands the gun over to Nick and he's freaking

653
00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:46.159
out because it's three bullets and one has already been blank,

654
00:35:46.199 --> 00:35:48.960
so that means out of five remaining shells, two of

655
00:35:49.000 --> 00:35:51.559
them are blank, three of them have bullets, And he

656
00:35:51.800 --> 00:35:54.280
ends up pulling the trigger and it's empty, and of

657
00:35:54.320 --> 00:35:57.639
course Nick freaks out. The tension is amazing. They had

658
00:35:57.639 --> 00:36:00.239
talked about this plan too before this is I'm going

659
00:36:00.239 --> 00:36:02.320
to shoot him, and you've got to pick the gun

660
00:36:02.440 --> 00:36:03.960
up and shoot the rest of him because I don't

661
00:36:03.960 --> 00:36:06.599
have enough bullets to shoot everybody. But they escape. They

662
00:36:06.639 --> 00:36:09.519
go get Steven out of the baskets. Nick has been

663
00:36:09.559 --> 00:36:13.360
shot in the leg during this altercation, and they're floating

664
00:36:13.400 --> 00:36:15.280
down the river to try to save themselves.

665
00:36:15.639 --> 00:36:19.280
Did you notice that there's a lot of archival footage

666
00:36:19.559 --> 00:36:21.360
from the war that was shown. Yeah.

667
00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:23.079
Yeah, they used real footage.

668
00:36:23.119 --> 00:36:25.760
They would take the sixteen millimeters, they would blow it up,

669
00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:29.360
and then they would color match and grain match their

670
00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:33.880
footage so that it would work in. Nick actually gets rescued. Yeah,

671
00:36:34.039 --> 00:36:36.800
the helicopter comes. They've they've caught themselves on a bridge

672
00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:38.119
and the three of them are trying to get on

673
00:36:38.159 --> 00:36:42.880
the helicopter, but it's it's nearly impossible, but Nick gets bold,

674
00:36:43.159 --> 00:36:46.840
Mike and Steven drop and Steven hits his leg on

675
00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:51.960
a rock in the water as a massive fracture compound fracture.

676
00:36:52.639 --> 00:36:55.880
Back at the hospital, Nick is recovering. It's like he

677
00:36:56.400 --> 00:37:00.119
checks out at this point. He starts to forget everything

678
00:37:00.119 --> 00:37:02.400
about who he is. I don't know, he's like blocking

679
00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:03.360
it out or something.

680
00:37:03.440 --> 00:37:06.079
Well, I think he was in like the full throes

681
00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:09.280
of a terrible PTSD, because if he had been with

682
00:37:09.400 --> 00:37:12.320
Mike or with Steve, they would have been able to

683
00:37:12.400 --> 00:37:15.239
tell the doctors this is what we went through, and

684
00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:18.239
the doctors would have immediately put them into some kind

685
00:37:18.280 --> 00:37:22.320
of psychological something. Instead, he just they just think he's

686
00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:25.920
kind of a coward or something because he's crying at

687
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:28.159
the right point. They basically get him in a uniform

688
00:37:28.199 --> 00:37:30.480
and get him out, which is insane.

689
00:37:31.159 --> 00:37:33.760
He winds up in Sigon, and some of this part

690
00:37:33.800 --> 00:37:36.079
here is where it kind of gets a little strange.

691
00:37:36.119 --> 00:37:40.679
But he's in Sigon and he comes across a Russian

692
00:37:40.760 --> 00:37:44.920
roulette gambling hall at the same time. Mike just so

693
00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:48.880
happens to be in Sigon at the same time. At

694
00:37:48.880 --> 00:37:52.000
the same season show at the same place. They're both

695
00:37:52.119 --> 00:37:55.400
drawing like moths to a flame, to this remembrance of

696
00:37:55.480 --> 00:37:59.920
their trauma. The whole thing is that this frenchman who's

697
00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:04.679
on a run in the show, immediately identifies Nick as

698
00:38:05.360 --> 00:38:08.800
somebody who would do this game and he could make

699
00:38:08.840 --> 00:38:10.760
a lot of money on and he gets him in there.

700
00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:12.880
And what happens in the scene is that two of

701
00:38:12.920 --> 00:38:15.159
them are doing it and they're getting ready. One of

702
00:38:15.239 --> 00:38:17.719
them is really scared about it, and Nick's standing there

703
00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:19.480
and he just picks up the gun and he holds

704
00:38:19.519 --> 00:38:22.480
it against the kid's head and click, and then he

705
00:38:22.519 --> 00:38:24.440
holds it to his own head. Click, and the frenchman

706
00:38:24.480 --> 00:38:27.639
then drags him out before Mike, who sees him, can

707
00:38:27.679 --> 00:38:31.039
get to him, and they disappear into the crowds, and

708
00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:34.119
that's the last just see of Nick for a very

709
00:38:34.199 --> 00:38:37.239
long time, you know, real quick. In the scene where

710
00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:39.239
Mike is coming home and he's in the cab and

711
00:38:39.280 --> 00:38:41.599
he doesn't want to stop at his home, I didn't

712
00:38:41.639 --> 00:38:45.280
realize at that point he had no idea if Steve

713
00:38:45.400 --> 00:38:48.880
was alive. Yeah, if Nick was alive, he was the protector,

714
00:38:48.920 --> 00:38:51.440
he was the leader. And he comes back and I

715
00:38:51.599 --> 00:38:56.960
you know, the PTSD and the Russian Roulette, Notwithstandy. You know,

716
00:38:57.760 --> 00:39:01.079
he's just not ready for that. And I didn't put

717
00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:04.039
it together that he didn't even know that his friends

718
00:39:04.039 --> 00:39:05.239
were alive or not.

719
00:39:05.480 --> 00:39:08.639
But the other interesting thing is Mike ultimately does get

720
00:39:08.679 --> 00:39:12.559
in touch with Steven. Steven has lost both his legs.

721
00:39:12.599 --> 00:39:16.039
He's in an electrified wheelchair, and he's at the VA

722
00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:20.079
hospital recovering quote unquote, but really has no plans to

723
00:39:20.519 --> 00:39:23.800
get out, to leave, to do anything. And he ultimately

724
00:39:23.880 --> 00:39:29.000
shows Mike a drawer full of money that his wife's

725
00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:32.480
been hundreds hundreds and hundreds of hundred dollar bills and

726
00:39:32.880 --> 00:39:36.079
who's been sending him, Well, his wife's been sending him

727
00:39:36.159 --> 00:39:40.280
socks and this money. This was another key in to

728
00:39:40.599 --> 00:39:45.320
why Nick was sending the money to his wife, because

729
00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:48.280
that was his kit that she was pregnant with.

730
00:39:48.400 --> 00:39:49.599
I didn't put that together.

731
00:39:49.800 --> 00:39:52.840
Yeah, so there's some of that. But she sends it

732
00:39:53.079 --> 00:39:57.119
to Steven saying I don't understand this. I think she's

733
00:39:57.119 --> 00:39:59.960
packing it in with the socks and sending him this money.

734
00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:04.800
But this tells Mike immediately that Nick is alive because

735
00:40:04.840 --> 00:40:05.800
Nick sent in the money.

736
00:40:06.039 --> 00:40:10.039
How cool was the effect of Steven in the wheelchair

737
00:40:10.079 --> 00:40:13.800
with no legs. Oh, it's great blue screen it was.

738
00:40:14.079 --> 00:40:16.880
It was so good the first time I'm looking at

739
00:40:16.880 --> 00:40:19.159
it and I'm like going, okay, how like you know,

740
00:40:19.440 --> 00:40:21.760
you know, Lieutenant Dan, you always see the behind the

741
00:40:21.760 --> 00:40:23.880
scenes where they have the socks and all that on

742
00:40:23.960 --> 00:40:26.719
that they blue screen. How but wow, this is nineteen

743
00:40:26.840 --> 00:40:30.039
seventy seven when they're filming it, and it was just

744
00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:30.480
such a.

745
00:40:30.559 --> 00:40:31.760
Well that's why they had to put it in an

746
00:40:31.760 --> 00:40:35.079
electric wheelchair because they had to put the battery underneath

747
00:40:35.159 --> 00:40:39.079
to sure to where his folded legs would be behind right,

748
00:40:39.119 --> 00:40:40.920
And they did a great job. It was a great job.

749
00:40:40.960 --> 00:40:44.159
It was. It was very effective. Yes, by the way,

750
00:40:44.199 --> 00:40:46.480
thank you. I didn't even put together that he was

751
00:40:46.519 --> 00:40:49.239
sending the money because of his son. Yeah, I didn't

752
00:40:49.280 --> 00:40:49.760
get that.

753
00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:52.400
That was well something, I mean, it's crazy because he

754
00:40:52.519 --> 00:40:54.039
was it may totally just point.

755
00:40:54.199 --> 00:40:54.440
Yeah.

756
00:40:54.760 --> 00:40:57.360
You have to understand how much money this was, because

757
00:40:57.440 --> 00:41:00.440
think about it, Mike's can get on a plane and

758
00:41:00.519 --> 00:41:04.000
fly to Southeast Asia. He gets there and he has

759
00:41:04.039 --> 00:41:06.719
to try to find him. So he finds that frenchman

760
00:41:06.880 --> 00:41:10.239
and he basically offers him so much money that the

761
00:41:10.239 --> 00:41:12.239
French was like, all right, fine, I'll take you and

762
00:41:12.320 --> 00:41:14.679
takes them by boat, which I thought was a little

763
00:41:14.679 --> 00:41:18.559
bit interesting because the river plays another part in this

764
00:41:18.679 --> 00:41:21.320
whole thing and the Russian Roulette, right, So you got

765
00:41:21.360 --> 00:41:24.199
the boat, you got the river, you got the Russian Roulette.

766
00:41:24.679 --> 00:41:26.880
It kind of was a good tie in to me

767
00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:32.239
with the original Water and Russian Roulette. So before it

768
00:41:32.360 --> 00:41:35.559
was Russian Roulette floating in the water, this was water

769
00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:38.320
to the Russian Roulette. So the bookending it to.

770
00:41:38.280 --> 00:41:41.840
Me, and also like going back to the wedding scene

771
00:41:41.840 --> 00:41:44.920
where they're underneath the light and Nick saying, don't leave

772
00:41:44.960 --> 00:41:48.440
me over there. So now Mike is honoring that he's

773
00:41:48.519 --> 00:41:49.840
there to get him back.

774
00:41:49.679 --> 00:41:51.960
Yeah, and the only way I can get in front

775
00:41:51.960 --> 00:41:53.239
of him is to play.

776
00:41:53.960 --> 00:41:57.000
So the sad things for me was that Nick doesn't

777
00:41:57.039 --> 00:42:00.719
even recognize him anymore, even though he says, yeah, he doesn't. Right,

778
00:42:00.760 --> 00:42:04.400
he's gone. And the final scene it was, it was

779
00:42:04.960 --> 00:42:07.000
it was very moving. I mean, it was very it

780
00:42:07.039 --> 00:42:08.480
was very good, very tragic.

781
00:42:08.599 --> 00:42:11.880
Yeah, and we left out a huge thing that we

782
00:42:11.920 --> 00:42:14.320
should have talked about because it was very big central

783
00:42:14.400 --> 00:42:17.199
theme and this whole thing was the whole idea of

784
00:42:17.239 --> 00:42:20.719
the one shot. Yes, one shot. So we didn't talk

785
00:42:20.719 --> 00:42:25.199
about it. But in the hunting and in the run

786
00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:28.119
up to the hunting, you had Mike He's like, this

787
00:42:28.320 --> 00:42:30.320
is this, you know, he holds out a bullet, a

788
00:42:30.400 --> 00:42:32.920
thirty I think it's a thirty thirty, but a bullet

789
00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:34.880
he's going to use to hunt this year, and it's like,

790
00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:37.519
this isn't anything else, this is this. And then it's

791
00:42:37.559 --> 00:42:40.639
like one shot. He hunts, one shot. He doesn't hunt

792
00:42:40.639 --> 00:42:43.920
and jack more shells in and shot shoot like his

793
00:42:44.039 --> 00:42:47.800
Twoposo friends. He takes the one shot and that's it.

794
00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:51.480
And that comes full circle at the end because that's

795
00:42:51.559 --> 00:42:54.800
the one sentence that breaks through to Nick. He's like,

796
00:42:55.280 --> 00:42:58.119
you know, one shot and he immediately picks up the

797
00:42:58.119 --> 00:43:01.480
gun and he loses the game. Yeah, it was just

798
00:43:01.519 --> 00:43:03.239
so close, so heartbreaking.

799
00:43:04.159 --> 00:43:06.039
The final scene of the movie, they're back at the

800
00:43:06.039 --> 00:43:09.599
bar they had the funeral of Nick, and John is

801
00:43:09.719 --> 00:43:11.920
in the back. He's starting to cook scrambled eggs and

802
00:43:11.960 --> 00:43:15.719
he starts singing God Bless America. Yeah, and eventually the

803
00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:20.199
others inside the bar they start picking this up. What

804
00:43:20.199 --> 00:43:22.280
were your thoughts on that? How did you interpret that?

805
00:43:23.119 --> 00:43:24.360
Ye wasn't it to be cynical.

806
00:43:24.519 --> 00:43:26.119
I think it was no be cynical.

807
00:43:26.280 --> 00:43:28.239
I think it was they put it in the movie

808
00:43:28.280 --> 00:43:31.599
because this was such a controversial movie about the war.

809
00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:35.679
The war was already controversial. We had huge protests in

810
00:43:35.760 --> 00:43:39.679
America about it. You had people protesting the Vietnam War.

811
00:43:39.719 --> 00:43:43.719
You had the Kent State massacred, people were dying, and

812
00:43:43.880 --> 00:43:46.719
this was one of the first movies and it portrayed

813
00:43:46.920 --> 00:43:51.239
the soldiers as somewhat heroic, which was not the take

814
00:43:51.320 --> 00:43:53.679
that most people were doing. And I think it was

815
00:43:53.719 --> 00:43:57.440
a nod to Middle America to say, we're not gonna

816
00:43:57.519 --> 00:43:59.840
beat up these people. These men that went over there

817
00:44:00.119 --> 00:44:03.000
thought this in this terrible situation. So that's what I

818
00:44:03.079 --> 00:44:05.440
think they put it in there for, was to kind

819
00:44:05.480 --> 00:44:09.000
of ease the everyman conscious. But that's you know, that

820
00:44:09.159 --> 00:44:10.280
might be totally rough.

821
00:44:10.760 --> 00:44:14.239
I found it to be almost ironic. You know, it's

822
00:44:14.239 --> 00:44:18.599
a very patriotic song and you're singing it and at

823
00:44:18.599 --> 00:44:21.960
the end of this film, during this you know, potentially

824
00:44:22.039 --> 00:44:25.519
very sad moment for these people, it just seems like

825
00:44:25.559 --> 00:44:28.719
an odd song to be singing. So it felt like

826
00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:32.880
it was out of place. But you know, it bookends

827
00:44:32.920 --> 00:44:36.400
with the nocturn that John was playing prior to him

828
00:44:36.440 --> 00:44:42.559
going to Vietnam, and I think in one way, just

829
00:44:42.679 --> 00:44:45.800
in the simple irony of the song, it was also

830
00:44:45.960 --> 00:44:46.519
very sad.

831
00:44:47.000 --> 00:44:49.360
Before we get to our final verdict, I think we

832
00:44:49.400 --> 00:44:52.119
need to take one more quick break. We'll be right back,

833
00:44:53.960 --> 00:44:56.599
and now it's time for the big question. Does the

834
00:44:56.679 --> 00:44:59.719
Deer Hunter groove or did it skip a beat? Matt,

835
00:45:00.599 --> 00:45:04.039
This is a complex movie. It was award winning. I

836
00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:08.239
think I can see why, but for my modern palette,

837
00:45:08.559 --> 00:45:12.119
I thought it dragged a little bit, especially in the

838
00:45:12.199 --> 00:45:16.760
scenes after Mike returns from the war that just went

839
00:45:16.800 --> 00:45:20.079
on far too long. The other thing I had problems with,

840
00:45:20.119 --> 00:45:22.559
which a lot of people have called out, is that

841
00:45:22.920 --> 00:45:26.840
Mike wears a beard through the entire movie, even when

842
00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:30.599
he's a green beret, which was absolutely against the rules

843
00:45:30.719 --> 00:45:33.880
in the Army at the time. You could have maybe

844
00:45:33.880 --> 00:45:36.159
a mustache, but you could not have a full beard

845
00:45:36.239 --> 00:45:40.280
because you know, basically it was because your gas mask

846
00:45:40.280 --> 00:45:43.360
wouldn't fit. Now, I have heard that it was a

847
00:45:43.400 --> 00:45:48.159
conscious choice by the director to set Mike apart to

848
00:45:48.320 --> 00:45:53.000
show his strangeness from everything right, But my problem with

849
00:45:53.039 --> 00:45:55.039
that is he had a beard at the beginning. He

850
00:45:55.079 --> 00:45:56.800
had a beard at the end. He had a beard

851
00:45:56.840 --> 00:45:59.760
all the time. It would have been far stranger to

852
00:45:59.800 --> 00:46:03.320
me for him to come back without a beard, because

853
00:46:03.400 --> 00:46:05.440
that's not who we knew it. So I think that

854
00:46:05.559 --> 00:46:08.840
was a poor decision and I don't like it. So

855
00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:14.159
I will say in summary without further ado, that this

856
00:46:14.360 --> 00:46:18.400
movie grooves through the ages, but I think it has

857
00:46:18.599 --> 00:46:23.199
lost a tiny bit of luster because the pacing could

858
00:46:23.280 --> 00:46:28.960
be better in terms of how the acting is done.

859
00:46:29.159 --> 00:46:33.719
I don't think there's any complaint, but other than that,

860
00:46:34.039 --> 00:46:35.880
I think it groves Matt.

861
00:46:35.960 --> 00:46:43.599
There is a mount rushmore of Vietnam movies. Yeah, Platoon, Apocalypse,

862
00:46:43.679 --> 00:46:47.360
now Full Metal Jacket, and then you have The Deer Hunter.

863
00:46:48.239 --> 00:46:51.679
And I also felt that the film dragged, but for

864
00:46:51.719 --> 00:46:54.719
me it was an act one, not Act three. But

865
00:46:54.960 --> 00:46:57.840
you're not wrong. The beard when he was in his

866
00:46:58.000 --> 00:47:02.079
dress uniform was a tad off putting to me. For

867
00:47:02.159 --> 00:47:05.599
other reasons, this film is good, and I would like

868
00:47:05.760 --> 00:47:09.840
to say that if you were to compare The Deer

869
00:47:09.920 --> 00:47:13.239
Hunter to Apocalypse Now, I think The Deer Hunter is

870
00:47:13.400 --> 00:47:17.400
really more about the effect that the war had on

871
00:47:17.599 --> 00:47:21.719
people who had come home, particularly blue collar workers who

872
00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:26.480
typically tend to bear the brunt of these kinds of operations,

873
00:47:26.760 --> 00:47:31.559
whereas Apocalypse Now was there to show the craziness of

874
00:47:31.599 --> 00:47:37.199
the war, the excess it was napalm fueled madness. The

875
00:47:37.280 --> 00:47:41.440
acting in this film was great, the cinematography was great.

876
00:47:41.679 --> 00:47:45.159
Overall for me, it also grooves. I'm not going to

877
00:47:45.199 --> 00:47:48.920
condition that at all. So there you go. Before we

878
00:47:48.960 --> 00:47:52.079
wrap up, we're heading into a travel section. I've changed

879
00:47:52.119 --> 00:47:55.599
things up on us, Matt. I decided to pair the

880
00:47:55.760 --> 00:48:01.440
Last Detail with Jack Nicholson and Dennis Quay with Scarecrow,

881
00:48:01.719 --> 00:48:06.400
which has al Pacino and Gene Hackman, two great rogue

882
00:48:06.440 --> 00:48:08.599
movies from the decade. I hope you haven't seen either

883
00:48:08.679 --> 00:48:10.360
one of them, because I kind of want to know,

884
00:48:10.440 --> 00:48:11.920
like which one we like at the end.

885
00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:15.039
Best I have seen the Last Detail. I remember it,

886
00:48:15.119 --> 00:48:17.760
I know what it's about, but I don't I'm not

887
00:48:17.840 --> 00:48:21.039
looking at it with this critical eye that I have

888
00:48:21.320 --> 00:48:23.199
gained since doing this podcast.

889
00:48:23.239 --> 00:48:26.840
Can I give you a quick spoiler? Sure? Jack Nicholson

890
00:48:26.920 --> 00:48:31.360
is so good as Billy Bedusky. Oh my gosh, he

891
00:48:31.440 --> 00:48:33.679
is so good. So we got a fun stretch hit.

892
00:48:33.760 --> 00:48:36.800
All right, sounds good, and so that wraps up our

893
00:48:36.840 --> 00:48:38.880
show for today. If you have a question or comment.

894
00:48:38.920 --> 00:48:41.159
We'd love to hear from you. You can reach us

895
00:48:41.199 --> 00:48:45.079
through our website at cinematic flashback dot com.

896
00:48:45.079 --> 00:48:48.360
Thanks for listening to the Cinematic Flashback Podcast. Join us

897
00:48:48.400 --> 00:48:50.599
next time as we dive into another classic from the

898
00:48:50.679 --> 00:48:52.960
nineteen seventies. We'll see you then.

899
00:48:53.719 --> 00:48:54.880
Fast Scare.

900
00:48:56.239 --> 00:48:57.039
Flashbag.

901
00:49:00.599 --> 00:49:02.760
Well, guys, I won't be seeing you for a while.

902
00:49:02.880 --> 00:49:06.199
Where are you going. I've joined the Naval Reserve. Well,

903
00:49:06.239 --> 00:49:09.280
I'm not gonna let anything happen to my best friend.

904
00:49:09.519 --> 00:49:10.559
I'm joining TOW.

905
00:49:11.159 --> 00:49:13.400
Well, I'm not gonna let anything happen to my two

906
00:49:13.480 --> 00:49:14.360
best customers.

907
00:49:14.599 --> 00:49:15.639
I'm joining toe.

908
00:49:17.480 --> 00:49:21.159
Jeez. Thanks guys. This is just like the Deer Hunter.

909
00:49:21.840 --> 00:49:31.599
The Deer Hunter. Ah, that reminds me the demo demo.

910
00:49:32.320 --> 00:49:34.519
I'm sorry, guys, we're shutting down for a while.

911
00:49:34.679 --> 00:49:35.920
Sorry,