THX 1138 (1971): George Lucas Before Star Wars

0:02 My telling you he's yours. Go ahead. What's wrong with me? What am I to her? She to me nothing? Yes, fine, she's an ordinary roommate. I share rooms with her. Our relationship is normal, conforming, excellent, share nothing. But space problem? What is she doing to me? Yes? I understand. I think I'm dying?

0:43 Could you be more specific? Welcome to the Cinematic Flashback Podcast. Get ready to hop into the wayback machine as we journey through the wild, bold, and unforgettable films of the nineteen seventies. Each episode, we break down a classic movie or forgotten Jim, seeing how it performed then and now, and wrapping things up by asking did it group to the decades or did it lose its beat? I am your host, Chuck Bryan, and today we are reviewing George Lucas's nineteen seventy one film THHX eleven thirty eight, starring Robert Duvall and Donald Pleasance. This month we're focusing on origin stories, zero wing in on two films THCHX eleven thirty eight and Duel to look at where George Lucas and Steven Spielberg got their start. And joining me, of course, is Matt Sargent, Matt, how the heck are you?

1:46 I am well, as you might remember, because we saw each other irl, as the kids say, just last week we went out and were able to catch a screening of The French Connection. I really enjoyed watching The Free Connection, and I thought that movie hit so much harder on the screen. What do you think? It was a lot better being screened, and it was a lot of fun to see it. We had a good time. So if you guys, wherever you're listening, if you get a chance to go to an obscure artsy theater and they're showing one of these seventies films, go because it was a blast. We had a good time. Even though The French Connection wasn't William Freakin's first movie, it was the first movie of his that I remember seeing.

2:31 And that's really what this month is about. Before Star Wars and Jaws, George Lucas and Steven Spielberg were still figuring out just who they were, and the films they were making looked very different from what audiences would later expect. So, Matt, was this your first time seeing THCHX eleven thirty eight? Did your brain hurt as much as mine did after watching it. And what are some of your favorite pre Star Wars science fiction films? So, yes, it was my first time seeing THHX eleven thirty eight. It definitely made my brain hurt, you know, just astatically looking at the screen. Everything's white and everybody's bald, and girls and employees, everybody. So yeah, it was a little disconcerting and shocking. My favorite pre Star Wars movies are definitely The Day the Earth Stood Still. I remember the first time I saw it. I didn't see it when it was released, obviously, I was like six years old or something. I was really interested by it. And then of course two thousand and one Space Odyssey, that's just a classic. And then I just remember Planet of the Apes for dystopian sure, you know, futures of weird situations, and of course you also had Charlton Heston in it. Yeah, you damn dirty apes.

3:52 Do you know what was amazing about Planet of the Apes is they had made Planet of the Apes into a very short run TV and they used a lot of the same masks and techniques prosthetics, thank you. Yeah, and it did a great job with it. Okay, my five or six year old mind remembers them doing a really good job of it. If I go back and watch it today, it may be really, really bad, but I remember loving that show. I'm a firm believer that, you know, it just needs to be enough to get past your disbelief, right, It doesn't have to be perfect. That's why puppets work, right, Yeah, puppets are clearly not real. But I mean, if anybody's ever watched The Muppets, you know there's real emotion in those puppets, right.

4:37 You have to connect right at a level. Yeah. Yeah, So I totally agree that that those prosthetics were really effective, and I think there were groundbreaking at the time, you know, with the whole rubberized face and the moving and the teeth and were is it was pretty pretty shocking. So you mentioned two thousand and one. That was another film that I had a chance to go see a couple of years ago in the theater. I remember sitting in front of a couple of twenty something year olds who were coming to see it because of course, hey it's Stanley Cooper. It's being shown on the big screen. They included the intermission. It blows their mind as to what's going on. Are we actually doing this is this and I'm like, yeah, this is this is your intermission, So go get some more popcorn, go do whatever you know, but but be back in about five minutes and you should be good to go. Okay, Matt. You know, getting feedback can be great, but getting criticism can be hard to take sometimes. And we recently got some feedback that, well, it's stung just a little bit.

5:40 Hey, Well, when you ask for input down, you gotta expected to sometimes be good and sure sometimes give us a mid courtse correction. So sure, sure. We got a little feedback from a fellow Phil Crocker, one who found our Clute episode to be uninformative ouch and left us two stars. Yeah, that's what he said, Clute is my first episode. Except for the neat comment on Clute gradually bringing light, all you did is recount the story, saying, whether you're liked it or not as boring, you're not Sarahs or Kale, and so why should we care. A young person watching the movie will easily understand the use of answering machines an extended riff is totally unnecessary. Much better would be a history of the development of the film in terms of script actor director choices critical responses than in the fullness of time and in any actual unique or insightful insights you might have. Ps A role can never in itself be an Academy Award role. Fond had nailed an extremely challenging character, and most, if not all, other actresses would have failed. So I don't disagree with his commentary, and I think Clute was probably one of the ones where we kind of maybe went on to much about recounting the story. I will say personally that I think there are roles that are written that are clearly intended as an elevated role to garner attention of

7:15 the Academy. Sure, Oscar bait. It's Oscar bait. It is what it is right now. Yeah, I don't disagree that any other actress might have just plopped that role. Yeah, Jane Fonda was great in it, and we said so. We said that as much that Jane Fonda was amazing in that role. Yeah. Yeah. We do oftentimes end up recounting a lot of the story, and I think a lot of that is I mean, to be perfectly honest, Matt, you and I are finding our voices for what we want. That section of the show to be Phil is listening. We definitely hope that you are. You know, we have made changes in that third segment where we're asking each other a little bit more questions to try to try to get some of that iea of our ideas out now. Matt and I wish we could be Andrew Sarras or Pauline Kal. We wish we had that kind of insight. But listen, you're gonna get the critic who says it stinks or you know, or it's good. That's really just who we are, and we hope that along the way we are able to highlight films that maybe people haven't remembered.

8:18 Sure, and I think, as they say, any publicity is good publicity, and I think any interaction with us is a good thing. Right. Sure, we thank Phil for the time to make us thoughts known, because he could have just turned us off, right he did, he cared. I really appreciate that, and hopefully this will make us a better podcast. We know that people's time is super valuable, so we appreciate it when someone actually listens and then makes some suggestions. So we definitely appreciate that input. We don't disagree with it. Wholeheartedly. I think you know, it is our show. We are going to say our opinions, and people can care or not care. After the fullness of listening to a few of our podcast and maybe finding a movie that you a hidden gem or something that you would not have normally seen, then we've done our job and that's sort of why we're here. Yeah, so I will also say good or bad, We look forward to your interaction. Please please leave us a comment, leave us a rating. I mean, certainly we would like to have five stars, but if you have what you feel are fair criticisms and that preserves two stars, then go ahead and give it to us. You always can write email messages directly to us if you don't want to actually, you know, make a big public statement about how you would like to see the podcast improved. But we are not shy about getting feedback and we will take action on it. And I think anybody who's been listening to the podcast knows that we've made like you said, we've evolved that middle section to be a little less

9:51 here's the story and a little more would you think about this? And would you think about it? Yeah? Which I think is more fun. It's more fun for us. So it's easier quite. You're right, So, Matt, before we got Phil's comment, this next little segment in our intro was one that I had started doing. You and I do a lot of research, a lot that tends to just never even make it. So I figured, hey, I've done some work here. Let me just put together a little something that sets the tone of the movie or the director, or the producer or the one producer who shot the other producer, something that is interesting to get people some connective tissue behind the film so that when they go to to watch it, they have a little something that they can hang on to.

10:38 Our little nugget that maybe they can even impress a friend with. But before you say that, let's be perfectly honest with our audience. You do most of the research. I'm along for the ride. My research is I remember watching this movie as a child. You are my Ed McMahon. Okay, you bring the fun and the color commentary is I think he once said, once upon a time. So I do like this section that you do because it does open a lot up for me and learning about the different things. And once you're open to some of that stuff, I will tell you that I was listening to something and somebody's making a comment about how George Lucas saw this crazy student film out of Canada which led him to come up with this whole idea of the force and stuff like that, which is just so cool, so very very cool stuff.

11:28 Well, George Lucas getting into him as a filmmaker. He didn't start off dreaming about Hollywood. He's just this kid from Modesto, California. Now Modesto not a very big place, but his dad was very prominent there. He owned a stationary store and he helped one day that George would grow up to take over the family business. But when you're a young teenager, you don't want to go into stationary. One, two, three o'clock, four o'clock rock. George's passions was in photography and cruising the streets on Saturday night, chasing girls and listening to rock and roll. What he really wanted to be was a mechanic. This is one of those strange stories where something has aligned up.

12:12 One of the people that he meets in the racing circuit is a guy by the name of Haskell Wexler, who is not only a race car driver but he's also a cinematographer. Now, when you were reading a little bit about George, did you come across his accident? I did, I did. He got t boned and he probably should have died. This is where that meeting with Haskell actually pays off, because Haskell helps George get into the USC Film School. He meets others who would make a group that was called the USC Mafia. I want to take just a little bit of a side to go through and list some of the other members. Not only was it George Lucas, John Milliuse, Howard Kazanjian Kazan produced films such as Raiders of the Lost Arc, The Empire Strikes Back in Return of the Jedi. Walter Merch not only did he do this sound in this movie, he did this sound for Apocalypse Now, The Conversation, The Godfather Part two. Hal Barwood, who was a screenwriter as well as Matthew Robbins. Matthew Robbins also directed Dragonslayer. Then you have Randall Kleiser, who was the director of Greece, Caleb Deschanel who was a director of photography for the movie The Right Stuff, Robert Dalva, who was an editor on films like Jurassic Park three, Jumanji, The Black Stallion, Hidago. William Hayak and his wife Gloria Katz wrote the screenplay for American Graffiti. And then the last member of the original group was a guy by

13:45 the name of Donald Glutt. He was a writer for television animation, also the author who wrote the novelization for The Empire Strikes Back. It's pretty crazy that that much creativity came out of that few set of years. Here's the crazy thing, man, this is not the USC Film School of today. This is the USC Film School of the sixties. People did not learn their trade by going to film school. They learned their trade by doing the work, which means you have to have an end right. This is where an opportunity arises because there's a competition that both Merch and George Lucas did. The winner would get to go to the lot of Warner Brothers and they would get to see a film being made. Of course, it's our boy George Lucas who wins. They send him over to watch the making of a musical directed by a young graduate from the UCLA Film School, Francis Ford Coppola.

14:44 Amazing after Coppola finished. His next film was called The Rain People. The Rain People starred Robert Devall. George Lucas brings Walter Merch along. The two of them begin to work on taking a student film than making it into a feature film, and that feature film would become THHX eleven thirty eight. Lucas and Coppola launched American Zootrope, with Warner Brothers financing their little experiment. Their first film was going to be THCHX eleven thirty eight. When the film was finished, it was shown to the Warner Brothers executives and they hated it. They pulled all of the support that they had given to Zootrope and it nearly collapsed that company even before it had a chance to begin.

15:28 The irony is is that the Godfather was right around the corner, and the benefactors of that wasn't Warner Brothers. It was another studio we've talked about before, Paramount with Robert Evans, and Lucas learned a very important lesson. It proved to him that he is able to build and create worlds. What it doesn't prove is that he can actually reach and connect with an audience. He goes back to his modesto roots. You know, those Saturday nights where he would spend cruising the streets, chasing the girls and listening to rock and roll. And he makes a movie called American Graffiti, and that film is a smash hit. And his next film is Star Wars.

16:09 That's amazing. It's so weird to hear the story of these guys as they're coming up. I bring my view of it as a young person in the nineteen seventy It was just part of the audience. I do not remember THHX eleven thirty eight, but I sure remember American Graffiti, The Godfather, and of course Star Wars as a young person growing and then these movies coming one after another, and seeing these just just the whole entertainment industry change right before your eyes. It was great to be a young person during that time. Well, I think we were ready to get into the production details, but first we need to take a quick break.

16:50 And flash back. All Earth. Counsile, in its infinite wisdom, has decided the two numbers are to be disposed of. The Biochemical Forum has demands to make on their parts, however, before they are eliminated. That's the kind of efficiency that makes you proud to live in this era, this series. Rare to thirty eight again, Kindness back off checks eleven thirty eight.

17:37 You have asked, are we happy? Are we happy? And effective consultation with leading experts in the field makes it perfectly clear, perfectly clear, that we are all now programmed for perfect happiness, perfect happiness, perfect happiness, perfect happiness. Correct. What did they do to you? There are, of course occasional technical or electronic errors in programming and or surveillance which produce perverse exceptions. First they start skipping prescribed blood dosages. Then they begin touching, then indulging in various sexual acts and the ultimate perversion love.

18:31 For such extreme psychobiological misfunction, only isolation will do, despite rumors to the contrary. It should be made perfectly clear, perfectly clear, perfectly clear. There have been no rebeat, no unprogrammed departures, no pursuits. Shell people will attack any person's venturing beyond prescribed areas. Wow, welcome back. Let's get into the production details. THCHX eleven thirty eight was a release on March eleventh, nineteen seventy one, and was distributed by Warner Brothers with a running time of eighty eight minutes, with a budget of seven hundred and seventy seven thousand, seven hundred and seventy seven dollars and I'm not making that number up. It took in nine hundred and forty five thousand dollars during its initial run. George Lucas's first film was a commercial failure.

19:49 The film was re released after Star Wars and in two thousand and four after the director's cut was released, eventually bringing in two point four million dollars. The screenplay was by George Lucas and Walter Merch and produced by American Zootrope. THCHX eleven thirty eight was edited by George Lucas. Walter Merch created the unique soundscape of the film that is integral to the story. Music was by Lalo Schiffrin, who is quickly becoming one of my favorite composers of the seventies. Contemporary reviews by Roger Ebert, Vincent Canby, and Charles Champlin came to similar conclusions. It's narratively of two set times, but it endures as a visually and sonically haunting sci fi experiment. THHX eleven thirty eight has a seventy two percent rating on Rotten Tomatoes, with a similar audience rating of seventy three percent.

20:38 Let's talk about this cast, Yeah, most notably Robert Duvall. He carries the whole film on his shoulders. And I mean Robert Duvall is an amazing actor, right, yeah, just, I mean he's really People remember him as a good actor, but when you see him act in a film like this, be prepared for a film that is probably not like many other films you've see. Robert Duvall, obviously, as I said, was a great actor and appeared in many things. And of course he was into killing mopcking Bird. He was in the theatrical version of Mash. He was in The Godfather as the Consiglatore and the Outfit, the Conversation Apocalypse Now, where he was amazing, and the great Santini Weary is also amazing.

21:23 I had almost forgotten that he was Frank Burns and Mash. Yeah yeah, And of course in Apocalypse Now he's Colonel Kilgore. It was roommates with Dustin Hoffman and Gene Hackman while they were struggling stage actors. Exactly can you imagine that apartment. I can't imagine what it was like when Gene Hackman drank the last beer and Dustin Hoffman comes in. I mean, like, what what is that argument like? Oh? It would have been hilarious. Well playing sen fifty two forty two is the great actor Donald Sutherland, I mean Donald Pleasants. Crap, I've been calling Donald Sutherton and Donald Pleasants all this time, and now the first time I have a chance to call Donald Pleasance Donald Pleasants. I call him Donald's subtle. Oh okay, forgive me for that contrivance. I know him as Doctor Loomis from Halloween.

22:12 I did not even remember that one. That's like his most famous role. What do you remember him from? I just remember him in The Great Escape where he was blind and he was hiding it. Donald Pleasants was one of two actual POWs on the cast The Great Escape. Also played the President in Escape from New York, which was Snake Pliskin's target to rescue out of New. York Snake Bliskin. But we would see much more of Donald Pleasants. But somebody who would not see anything else from again would be Maggie mcconey, who plays Luh thirty four to one seven. She decided that after THHX eleven thirty eight she wasn't going to pursue a film career.

22:56 I think that's a real sad story. I think she did a good job. There is a promotional on the making of THHX which shows them getting their hair shaped, so they did this out in public. It's always hard. You could tell Robert Devall, well, he's already got a big bald spot up there, so for him it wasn't that much of a difference. But for Maggie and for a couple of the other female actresses, it's very hard. It's hard to watch because you can see them take. Some years to grow it out again. But I think it's also noteworthy to realize that Luh is kind of the prime instigator of the entire film. She's the one that decides she's going to stop taking some of her sedatives and in so doing realizes she has feelings for THHX and decides that she's going to switch his sedatives out so that he can experience emotions as well.

23:52 The last actor that I did want to point out was Don pedro Coley, who plays SRT fifty seven fifty two who was one of the Hologram entertainers. I actually got confused on this because when he said he was a hologram, I really thought that he was actually a hologram, so it might have been a robot or something that became real. So I was a little confused on that. I must have misunderstood because I thought that he was a person who was on the Hologram entertainment. No, I think you're right. I think you gotta be corrected because it doesn't make any sense. I was just confused, And to be honest with you, in this film confusion.

24:32 It's part of the package, right part. And Parcel I really liked him though. It was a great character. He was great and he actually comes in at the end where honestly, the third act it starts to pick up and some action happens. But one piece of trivia that I wanted to point out this film predicted separate channels for violence, sex, comedy, and news. Matt, why don't you go ahead and give us a synopsis for THHX eleven thirty eight. So I think this is straight off the it is, but I'm just going to read it for you because it's not bad. It's not bad. A chilling look at the future that also reflects the present. THCHX eleven thirty eight stars Robert Tufall as a man whose mind and body are controlled by the state. When THX begins to break free, he makes a desperate attempt to escape a world where thoughts are regulated, freedom is non existent, and love is forbidden. How was that?

25:37 That's your movie trailer man? Voice? That's what it is. Someone told me a long time ago that I should be a voice actor. I don't think so, but it's fun. When we come back. We're going to go ahead and dive into our thoughts on THHX eleven thirty eight, but first we need to take another quick break. Don't go anywhere. I'm Amber, I'm Dayton inm Disney's Jean, I'm Robert, and I'm Tim and. We are the host of the docum based seventy seven podcast, and we're here. To give you a little tease of what to expect in twenty twenty six. In January, we're bringing back on our very very popular sci fi movie mon that's one iconic film from the nineteen fifties, sixties, seventies, and eighties.

26:24 You all know that we love Disney on this broadcast. I mean it's literally in my name. So Amber and I are going to be going to spend some quality time with you looking at their live action films from the fifties, the sixties, and the seventies. Think twenty Thousand Leagues, Apple, Dumpling Gang, and so much more. Now, the year nineteen seventy seven was an important year for pop culture. We're talking game changing, earth shattering, culture defining moments. So we are doing our longest series ever looking at films and albums from that legendary year, Documase seventy seven, where Broadway references meet the Voice of Reason and it's healthy for you. We're just a bunch of nerds discussing what we're listening to, watching. And reading, and as always encouraging you to listen to more music, read more books, and watch more movies.

27:04 I remember, physical media is better than streaming. Docing Baby seventy seven, You're a twenty twenty six adventure starts here and flash back. Welcome back. Check and I are about to get into our thoughts on THHX eleven thirty eight, So there may be spoilers ahead. Just a heads up. This might be a good time to pause the podcast and check out the film if you haven't seen it yet. The original nineteen seventy one version isn't widely available, and the nineteen seventy seven version can be difficult to track down. We've heard you might find it over on the Internet archive, but we'll leave that for you to verify. The only widely available commercial version is the two thousand and four Directors Catch, which you can rent from the usual places.

27:51 Since this was your first time watching it, how long did it take before you realized what kind of movie this was going to be? I was pretty sure what it was going to be kind of right from the beginning. It was able to kind of explain itself pretty well going in, but there was a lot of details left off. Who's running the show? Do you ever find it out? What's going on? So there's a lot of questions, but you kind of get the general drift of things that were going I would say it wasn't a film that kind of locked me in. It does keep you at an arms length, and I think that is somewhat on purpose.

28:32 Yeah, I would agree. You know, we've talked about this before with films that are trying to give you while watching it. They're trying to orchestrate a feeling, you know. I think we definitely talked about that in The Sorcerer and some other films like that, and I think this definitely was doing that. This was trying to sort of put you into this dystopian future where all hope is lost and this automatons are going forward. So whenever I mentioned THHX eleven thirty eight people who've seen it, the first thing that they say is, Oh, it's basically George Lucas doing nineteen eighty four. What do you think of that? I would say that's a fair comparison, But I actually think it's more Logan's Run without the fun. Oh right, Logan's Run without the fun. And to me, that's why the whole thing falls flat, because my personal opinion is you cannot get humans, whether you give them drugs or whatever, without significant police. I know we had monitoring and we had those robots, but they were stupid and slow, and you can't get humans to do what you want without tricking them. Like the Matrix. You know, you build this whole world that they can live in because they think they're free, and then everybody's free, and the same thing with Logan's run. It's like, Okay, everything's taken care of, you have plenty of food. You just have to go to carousel when you're twenty nine and get murdered. But you don't know that. You pretend like you're getting rejuminated or whatever. Yeah, I think it's exactly like that, except for it's just depressing, is all get out. And yeah, they just give them a lot of drugs. And honestly,

30:04 if you think about the time they were coming out of, they're coming out of the nineteen sixties, you know, where drugs were really prevalent and LSD was making it was huge, and heroin and all these crazy drugs and stuff. So people of that time probably believed in the future that, you know that maybe you could be one hundred percent controlled by giving a regiment of pills every day, which you know, I mean, obviously we are in a society now that uses a lot of mood enhancing drugs and people under prescriptions and stuff like that we understand, but not to the extent it's shown here. So that sort of fell flat for me. I didn't. That was unbelievable for me. So I think what I almost missed watching this film is that it starts off before the Warner Brothers logo, the nice nineteen seventies red shield logo, not the one that we're used to seeing now. There is a short flip from Buck Rogers.

31:00 Roger in that, but Jery Buck Rogers now adventuring in the amazing world of the twentieth century. By turning a little dial to project us ahead in time, we're able to be right with Buck and his friends in the wonderful world. Of the future, the world that. Sees a lot of our scientific and mechanical dreams come true. You know, there's nothing supernatural or mystic about Buck. He's just an ordinary, normal human being who keeps his wits about him. I know that George Lucas grew up watching movie serials, but this is not George Lucas in his thirties. This is still him, like he's twenty three, twenty four to twenty five at the time, and this is a guy who's still quite young, quite finding out who he is in this world. It's almost like he recognizes that desire for what the future could be. But he says, this is really where I think we're actually going to go with, you know, the advent of all of this technology at some point, who's behind it? I don't think anyone's behind it.

32:06 It could be just a computer that's behind it. And everyone has been conditioned with the drugs. They're also conditioned to no longer care. This is where I think it's different from nineteen eighty four. Nineteen eighty four is all about big brother. It's all about forcing what you think, and if you don't agree with the state, the boot is put on your neck. In this movie, we've gotten to the point where people don't even care. And you pointed out that the robots are basically feckless bad you have nothing, They can't do anything. By the end, they're begging him, please come back for your own good. Don't go up there, you know. So I was going to ask you what your reaction was when the movie ended.

32:55 I would have loved for it to gone on a little bit to see what was out there was eden out there. To me, it would have been cool for him to walk out into what essentially would be like a wild earth, untamed and fresh, and he's he's walking out. Unfortunately, he's walking out by himself. So to me, it would have been a better film all the way around. If he and l U H walked out into this garden of Eden and he is essentially Adam and Eve right, and you get into the whole Wait a minute, was this actually Adam and Eve in the garden? Yeah? So the end for me was a little hollow, but it was also sort of like, Okay, they've been doing this to us the whole movie. The whole film has been a little bit sort of unsatisfying on how things are resolving.

33:46 You know, what happens to people and where they go, and they're in that weird prison that's just a white space that goes on for a really long time but not forever. But you notice it's a prison, right, but there are no doors, but it's unlocked. All you have to do is have that hologram guy SRT say no, look right over there, and then they walk past wherever he was pointing at. I think Sen said, hey, nothing happened. Yeah. Well. The other part about it is, if you recall at the end you had the shell dweller. Now, at no point while PHX was running from the robots, was there any door he went through. He just kept running and then he got into a pipe and then he gets to the shell dwellers. So I'm like, why aren't the shell dwellers coming down into this area? Maybe that's the number one job for the police. It could be the other thing. I will just give you My other criticism on this whole thing is when he's less drugged, he's less good at his job, which that was weird. Right, Well, can I ask you a question? Sure?

34:46 Why do we give people ADHD medication? Oh? Yeah, no, I get it. And what happens when yeah, focused and stuff like that. Yeah, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but that's how I. Know it's funny, and it was a conversation. I would just say that was weird that he it's less good at his job. I would have thought they would have down the drugs and he would have been like even better at his job. And also, you know, having a relationship with Luh and all these things are going well, but of course it's the opposite. But the other thing that gets me is, so you're putting together these robots that have a nuclear powered head. Don't you think those robots would be better? Putting together the robots than drug humans? Why is you know, to me, that was just like, what are the humans for there?

35:30 Now the Dunans are there there, they're there to make their captors. Yeah, well move into Logan's run. Everything is done for you. So now you are a leisure class and we have to do something to get rid of you because now you're a leisure cast, consuming until age twenty nine. Then we're going to zap you in the carousel. So to me, it's like, oh, that's the beginning of Logan's Run. They just haven't gotten the point where the robots are making of robots yet. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, we don't have Box yet, right, we have a Box that was a little bit of a throwback there we go. Box. Okay, yeah, Boxes Class, go back and listen to our Logan's Run as we talk about the incredible robot.

36:14 Box is amazing. So something I thought was really interesting was this confessional. It's almost like you're talking to a priest, but really you're talking to a recording yeah with the image with the image of Christ, and the voice comes down and it's going yes, uh huhm, And how did that make you feel? You know, it's just and and they do this a couple of times, so you get to hear it, but then he ends up by saying something along the lines of work hard, avoid accidents by more. I don't know if you noticed this, because it's like there's a lot of stuff that just happens. There's one scene where THHX goes into some store and he buys this, like I'm assuming he buys. He goes in and he's like looking and he comes out with this red what is it, like a dough deca hydron hub or something like that, and then he puts it on the table when he gets back in, and then at some point he just comes right around and just puts it into the disposal. Yeah, okay, so we're just buying stuff to throw it away because that's what we do.

37:15 Where would you put it? I don't think there are any shelves in the house. No, no, Well, and like you said, everything in this film is white. Everybody has no hair. Any kind of individuality or humanity is pretty much stripped from him. They used a lot of extras from this Sentanon drug rehabilitation facility where everybody already had bald heads as part of the treatment. Guess what they turned out to be a cult? Oh? I think I saw a documentary or something on that because they were in like a mansion or something. Yeah, yeah, that's crazy, So that was crazy. So I think we've kind of hit on a lot of stuff here. One of the things that in George Luke when he was at film school, a lot of the types of student films that he would make is what they call tone poems. The idea here was that the narrative was not really important, the character development wasn't really important. It was more of this mood and aesthetic that drove the film along. I think when you look at THHX eleven thirty eight, it feels a lot like that.

38:28 The characters, for me, I don't think were ever really developed at all. That's a criticism that people would level at Lucas for years. I always have a hard time when you criticize character development on something as short as a movie. I think it's probably this movie earned him that reputation of not having a lot of character development, and people just kept that criticism on through. But when you're dealing with characters like in Star Wars or in Raiders of the Law Stark and things like that, where you know they're playing an archetype, right, Oh, good work. They're playing a hero, they're playing the Western hero, they're playing the sage advisor.

39:10 You know how much development do you get from that? Right? And maybe that's why it's hard for us with something like THX eleven thirty eight, because none of these characters fit an archetype, right. Yeah. Yeah, you always feel like maybe they've been purposefully held off at arms length. It's hard to really connect with them. For me, the first person whom I really liked, who I thought showed any emotion whatsoever, was when Don pedro Coley shows up in the third act. It feels like that the narrative begins to take shape and it starts to focus on the end where THX is now fully awake and he's trying to get out. So I will go back to my theme about Adam and Eve, and I will tell you that I think the writing on this film really missed a cool thing.

39:58 If you realize Luh was one that switched the pills. Eluh was the one that gave the apple. Sure, he was the first one that switched her pills. Then she got her mate to switch the pills and had sex. This is very analogous to Adam and eve. You know, they then started covering themselves with the big leaves, and they didn't do that before because now they know shame okay, And it would have been great if they had escaped together out into this garden of Eden. To me, that would have been a fantastic movie. That would have been an amazing movie. Maybe it would have been a little bit too obvious, but to me, I think there's a lot of undercurrent there of that sort of thing. I did think that the fate of lu H was it kind of hit hard.

40:42 No, God, it was horrible. Let's not share that. We'll leave that for folks to explore. Leave that, we leave that for an exercise for the readers. Since we did talk about George Lucas's youth and his obsession with speed and cars, what did you think of those Formula one racing Oh? Yeah, those were cool and they were driving them all around with the little bubble thing. Yeah. The funniest scene of the whole movie is SRT trying to get into one of them. He's a tall man. Yeah, physically, I mean like physically just big, not fat or anything, but just big. I think they must have taken the seat out of that car. To get him in there, because I was watching it going, he ain't gonna fit in that, and then you see his head drop down.

41:24 There's lots of shots in here, and I'm gonna say that if you watch this movie, what you have to watch it for is not the story. Yeah, okay, I think the story kind of comes with what you're really looking at is you're looking at George Lucas. You're looking at how he's positioning the camera, how people are pushing buttons, and in your mind you start to think, oh my gosh, that's like when they push the buttons to light the Death Star laser, or you hear these sound effects that are happening, and in your mind you're going, wow, this sounds a lot like you know, the land speeder or something. The remote control arms, remember those that drop the nuclear thing? Yeah, and yeah, you're right. Even the cops begins to give you this idea of C three ps. So you're starting to see the genesis of ideas. Even the idea of oppression and rebellion right are in THHX. Now they are better realized and much more entertaining in Star Wars, sure, but it is here in THCHX. And then at the end, you've got this chase.

42:24 They're going through this tunnel which looks a lot like a trench. You have a lot of that, and that's the way that you have to watch it. Yeah, I one hundred percent agree. Yeah, I'm not sure if you paid too much attention to the sound design in this film and access at one point, you. Know, it was definitely an aesthetic feeling that was with you through the whole film. But as anyone who's listened to this podcast knows, I appreciate that aesthetic, but I don't recognize it for the genius that it might be. So Yeah, at one point they were editing at his house.

43:09 George was editing during the day. Walter Merch would come in at night and they started developing their own language. They would say, hey, could you hand me real too dialogue too? Well, saying real too dialogue two took a lot of effort and they decided to short that down. They would say, Hey, give me R two D two And that name came up later. Oh that's cool, that's very cool. In the chase scene, someone says, hey, I think I just ran over a wookie. There was one other actor I wanted to ask you about Johnny writs me a little junior. That was so funny.

43:49 I was looking forward to seeing Tarzan's son and he was one of the robots. They had a gold had a gold helmet on the whole time. That's actually amazing. No, I was gonna say again, this is like one of the things for why you watch credits in seventies films because this had the first on screen credit of David Ogden Steers, who you might remember from the TV show Mash as major Charles Emerson Winchester Steers the third Yeah, and also Cogsworth and Beauty and the Beast. Finally, in the we wish to thank section, Haskell Wexler's name is there at the end as well.

44:29 That's nice. And they also thanked BART, which is the Bay Area Rapid Transit. Yes, so that's the subway system. So they must have filmed some of that tunnel scene in a not yet completed tunnel or an abandoned tunne because they do build those sometimes. So that was cool. Yeah. Yeah, we need to take a quick break, but we'll be right back. Flash back. And flash back, welcome back. I think we're about ready to ask the question did thx eleven thirty eight groove through the decades, or did it lose its beat? Well, I don't want to be too harsh, because here's the real thought. I wish I listened to this podcast before I saw the film, because I feel like I would have enjoyed it more knowing some of these details and looking for them. So I could go back in time and watch it the first time after listening to this podcast, I probably enjoy it more. So that's a shout out to our listeners that if you're going to get one up on me, because you'll be prepared to better enjoy this film. I felt like it was an unfinished film. It was rough around the edges. I thought Robert Duvall did an amazing job. I also thought the female actress was amazing, and I'm really devastated that she didn't continue her career because I think she had real potentially had a very unique look to her. She's freckle faced and just really very I thought really good on

46:00 Scream Sure, as well as Donald Pleasance, who was also an amazing actor and was great in the film. But it just felt like it was just one of those ones where it's like, Okay, I got the message they're drugging the people. Let's move on. So the whole second act to me was like, are you kidding a remark in time here? Let's move it along. The third act was a little bit fun because you sort of got the idea that this is a prison without walls and anybody could just leave when they wanted to. So it sort of put things in somewhat a perspective. But again, like I said, the ending was not to my liking. I think it could have been done a lot better. So to me, I have to be with the people of the nineteen seventies who basically declared that this did not groove back then. And I am not sure unless you are a George Lucas sort of fan, this may not be the film that you would want to watch.

46:53 And I would also say it is not a film you would bring a friend to because your friend would need to be equally dedicated to seeing the early works of a genius, but clearly early works. And so I would say I always judge films like this as could my wife sit through this? And the answer is no, she would have left, she would have gone to bed. So that's what I think. What about you, Chuck, I think you might have had a much more positive impression of this film. Well, I think I've had a little bit more time to to think about about this one. But also too, I'm also realized now I'm coming from having read two books on George Lucas, so there's a lot that I'm already bringing to the table. So the lift is is different for me than your. Your reaction is probably a lot more honest and raw because it's what's It's not tainted by a lot of outside information.

47:52 It's an everyman opinion. I would agree with that, or every person opinion. Well, George Lucas's first film is a giant on set and it is swimming in some of the same waters as two thousand and one, a Space Odyssey. It's less of a traditional narrative and much more of an experience. And just like two thousand and one, you're going to end watching this film asking what's next, But that's not really the point. Kubrick was exploring the next evolutionary step of mankind shaped by extraterrestrial force. Lucas is doing something different. He's showing us a man who is choosing to leave a system, a prison where there are no gates where even the dreaded robot police turn out to be powerless.

48:37 THHX eleven thirty eight is a bold vision from a twenty four year old filmmaker who clearly has something to say. I just don't think many people were listening at the time. What we're left with is an interesting artifact, maybe Lucas's most honest attempt to tell the kinds of stories that he wanted to tell, and he would learn from this he would repackage all of these ideas into Star Wars. The film didn't groove when it was released, and I don't think the average moviegoer would feel any different today. But I think the film is absolutely astounding, especially coming from someone that young. Technically, it looks incredible, the sound design is fantastic, and for a film released in nineteen seventy one, it still holds up remarkably well. So for me, this one grooves. But Matt, I'm going to admit this is going to be the kind of film that a lot of people are going to say lost its beat.

49:33 And my spouse also would not have made it past the first five minutes of this film before checking out. Yeah, So I mean I do agree with a lot of your points, and it was pretty pretty shocking for a movie released in nineteen seventy one. I don't disagree with your take on it, but I can see why it did not really smash it box. Office definitely, and I mean Warner Brothers. It scared them to death with what investments they were making into American zotrop. They lost money on this film, but they lost even more money by not having the Godfather in their stable.

50:15 That's being careful and shooting yourself in the foot, which is sure. I really think back about one thing about this film, which I think is remarkable at this point. Robert duval was a big time actor, right. He wasn't small time, was he? Well, I mean he was moderately, he's certainly bigger than a twenty three year old director. Let's put it down. Well, so can you imagine a twenty three year old director directing Robert Duvall in this film? To me, it's pretty remarkable that Robert Duvall probably listened to this guy and went, Okay, this guy's got it. And I don't get the film, but you know what, this is gonna be my ticket.

50:57 Robert Duvall in Rain People. He wasn't the leading actor in that film, right for him, THHX eleven thirty eight was the first film where he would become a leading actor. I think maybe it was his relationship with George from Rain People that actually transition that in there. So I'd always be curious to see what he thought about the film later, But. I don't know, Yeah, it would be cool to know. I guess my point really is maybe if he wasn't or was a big actor, he certainly was going to go on to be, oh, absolutely a huge actor. Monster guy, monster guy. But they think about it, he met this young kid on this crazy movie Rain People, Rain People, and then gets into this movie which is clearly crazy as well, that he's like, nah, yeah, this guy seems like he's got it, so I'm going to stick with it.

51:44 You have this connection of all these people like yeah, Francis for Copeland, George Lucas. I mean, I mean they there was a lot of money that I'm going to investment. Yeah, what a friend group. And that It's no accident that Robert duvall is in so many movies by Francis Ford Coppola in the seventies. I mean, he was in Godfather, Godfather Part Two, The Conversation, Apocalypse Now and those are the four big films I believe of Copola in the seventies. So I mean, yeah, there's a lot of what is the word loyalty? Yeah there? Yeah? Yeah, So well, Matt. That wraps up our coverage on THCHX eleven thirty eight. As part of our Origin Stories month, we're looking at where these legendary directors began, and next time we're shifting from George Lucas to Steven Spielberg. Our next film is his nineteen seventy one television movie Duel, and.

52:37 Yeah, it may have started as a TV movie, but it's also a huge early step in showing just how well Spielberg could build tension and control an audience. Matt, have you seen Duel before? I have not. You're gonna love it, so be sure to come back as we hit the road and find out if Dual still groves to the decades or if it loses its beat. Thanks for tuning in. Let us know what you thought what about THX eleven thirty eight. You can reach us at Cinematicflashback dot com. Don't forget to leave us a rating and a review, it just might get red on the air, good or bad. If you enjoy the show, help us grow by sharing with your friends and neighbors and anybody else you know on the Internet. Join us next time as we hop back into the wayback machine and head once again to the nineteen seventies for another classic.

53:24 We'll see you then flashback. Remember, an interval overdose may cause a serious chemical imbalance.